Unlock the power of your mind to revolutionize your golf game in our enlightening conversation with Josh Nichols. A seasoned golfer who's competed in the USGA mid-amateur and now the brains behind the Mental Golf Show, Josh unravels the intricate tapestry of the mental aspects of golf. Discover his journey from a professional golfer, his transformation into a mental golf coach, and the birth and growth of his coaching business. You'll be captivated by his insights on managing stress on the course and how to look beyond your score for your self-worth.
Ever wondered why performance issues plague you despite your best efforts? Josh highlights the root causes of such problems in golf and how to override the fight-or-flight response that can throw you off your game. He shares his expert advice on how to navigate through external distractions, manage expectations, and confront your shadow selves on the course. With his wisdom and effective meditation practices, you'll learn how to shift from being a passive passenger to becoming the driver of your own mental performance.
Wrap up your journey with a deep dive into the transformative power of non-judgmental awareness in golf. Take a leaf out of Cam Smith's book and understand the pressure of winning a major, and how to create a buffer between stimulus and response. Josh drives home the importance of embracing the noise and finding mental freedom in golf to reach peak performance. Whether you're a rookie golfer or seasoned pro, this is an opportunity to gain insights into mental agility and add a new dimension to your game. Ready to tee off?
Unlock the power of your mind to revolutionize your golf game in our enlightening conversation with Josh Nichols. A seasoned golfer who's competed in the USGA mid-amateur and now the brains behind the Mental Golf Show, Josh unravels the intricate tapestry of the mental aspects of golf. Discover his journey from a professional golfer, his transformation into a mental golf coach, and the birth and growth of his coaching business. You'll be captivated by his insights on managing stress on the course and how to look beyond your score for your self-worth.
Ever wondered why performance issues plague you despite your best efforts? Josh highlights the root causes of such problems in golf and how to override the fight-or-flight response that can throw you off your game. He shares his expert advice on how to navigate through external distractions, manage expectations, and confront your shadow selves on the course. With his wisdom and effective meditation practices, you'll learn how to shift from being a passive passenger to becoming the driver of your own mental performance.
Wrap up your journey with a deep dive into the transformative power of non-judgmental awareness in golf. Take a leaf out of Cam Smith's book and understand the pressure of winning a major, and how to create a buffer between stimulus and response. Josh drives home the importance of embracing the noise and finding mental freedom in golf to reach peak performance. Whether you're a rookie golfer or seasoned pro, this is an opportunity to gain insights into mental agility and add a new dimension to your game. Ready to tee off?
Hello, jesse Perryman here from the Fly Hunters Golf podcast and welcome once again to another really good addition. So with this one, the next guest that we've got on, justin's got the week off. This week he is giving somebody an incredible lesson there in Singapore at the Tanahmer Golf Club. We never want to forget Justin being my co-host, good friend, idea bouncer offer and a great friend and a great ally. He's got the week off. As I said, this week we have on the Fly Hunters Golf podcast a guy by the name of Josh Nichols. Who is Josh Nichols and why is he significant and why would I ask him to come on? Well, I found him on Twitter. He is a mental golf coach. That is what he does for a living. He is the host of the Mental Golf Show and you can find the Mental Golf Show on all of the podcast directories. He's also a coach at Precision Golf School.
Speaker 1:What's relevant about Josh is that he himself also is a high level player. He made it to the finals in the mid-amateur the USGA mid-amateur one year. Those who know that's the premier event for amateurs working amateurs, if you will, between the ages of 25 to whatever. These are guys that have jobs and have families that still love to compete at the highest level that they can muster up, and the mid-amateur is at the highest levels. Having the champion, having earned or earning a right into the Masters in April, that's a big gift to us who love the game and who have that possibility by qualifying for the United States mid-amateur and winning it and playing in the Masters. It's a high honor and it's great. Josh was one match away from doing that but lost, unfortunately, and has taken his skills in what he's learned playing the game at a high level to help folks get better at the intangibles.
Speaker 1:What are the intangibles? Well, if you got a pretty good golf swing and you know how to play the game, there's a good chance that it's not your golf swing, that it's something deeper or it could be something that is a blind spot for you. The bottom line and I know that Justin and I have talked about this in previous podcast episodes is that once you get to about a five, it really starts to no longer become your golf swing. But what's your mental landscape? What are you thinking about out there? Or are you missing something? Or are you missing how to play, how to manage your game, how to manage your game, especially when it's not going well from the ball striking side and those of us who play understand this very well.
Speaker 1:You're not always going to hit the ball. Great Sorry. It's a perfect game played by a bunch of imperfect beings. You're not going to hit the ball on the center of the face on every swing, as much as you would like to. You're not going to make every putt as much as we would like to, and you're not going to. You're going to miss some three footers. You're going to miss some two footers. You're going to snap, hook some shots. You're going to hit some shots offline. Such is the nature of the game.
Speaker 1:How do we deal with it? How do we look at ourselves on the golf course? How do we manage stress on the golf course? These are things that are indicative on and off the golf course, how we deal with adversity and how we use it to better our own position, to use it as a catapult or a spring ball to further inflate and grow our self worth or sense of who we are.
Speaker 1:These are the things that come up on the golf course, and what Josh does expertly is he helps us to navigate these emotions and to use them to our advantage. He's got training modalities that he used and I'm going to let him explain on the pod. You can also listen to the words that he has to say the calming reassurance that, whether we're playing well or whether we're playing poorly, the sense of who we are doesn't change. None of that changes those of us who wear our emotions on our sleeve, ie me. It's refreshing and also affirming to know that we can be separate from our golf score and we can also use whatever that is ailing us as a learning platform. We can learn and grow and get better from our mistakes.
Speaker 1:Guys like and guys and gals that are out there in this particular space that train the intangibles are a much needed part, and I believe that this is the next frontier into golf, sports performance, and we look at ourselves deeply and maybe we have some tough thoughts that we have to overcome. Maybe we have some tough beliefs that are in there that we need help to bring to the surface so that we can reprogram ourselves not only to play better golf but to lead better lives. And we talk about this very phenomenon on the show, and I really enjoyed having Josh on and conversing with him. Hopefully, this is the first and only time that we have him on. I'd love to have him on many more times, moving forward into the future, it also helps to have a coach who's been there at the highest level. He can empathize in whatever frustrations that we have because he's been there. And no one's immune, no matter what kind of a caliber of player you are. No one's immune to human emotions. No one is immune to disappointments. How we respond to those things helps us to become better players, and that's the hope, one of the main intentions of why I started this whole thing.
Speaker 1:You can find Josh. I would encourage you to go on to any of the podcast directories. It's literally called the mental golf show. He's got some great things to say. I'm a subscriber. I love it. It's helped me in my own game.
Speaker 1:You can also find him at Precision Golf School. I think his website is wwwjoshnicklescom and his name is spelled J-O-S-H Nickles. Last name is spelled N-I-C-H-O-L-S. You can find him on Twitter at the mental golf show. Find him on Instagram. You can find him on Instagram at JoshLukeNickles. Once again, his contact information is on there.
Speaker 1:Get ahold of him If you have something that is a mess, if you've got some blocks in there that you're unaware of and you're curious. He'll help you dig those out and help you to use whatever has been ailing to your advantage. One of the great things that I've ever heard in my life is to make your weaknesses your strength. Well, in order to do that, one must become aware. Guys like Josh and people in this space will help you to become aware, and awareness is most of the battle. We need folks to help us explore our blind spots and to help bring unconscious things into the conscious mind so that we can work on them and grow from them.
Speaker 1:Enough with my intro rant, let's get to the program right now. Josh, once again, thanks for coming on. If you need to get ahold of me, you can also reach me the easiest on Instagram. Just message me direct at flag hunters, golf pod. All one word we're going to go deeper. We're going to do deeper dives into this very phenomenon.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know how much more we can learn about the golf swing, but we can also learn more about the mind and what drives it. What drives the swing? Cheers everyone. Hope everyone's having a great week. I hope the week in front of you is planned with a lot of fruitful propositions and cheers everybody. Hello and welcome to another edition of be flag hunters golf podcast. My name is Jesse Perryman. I am your host. Unfortunately we don't have Justin with us this week because sometimes I'm selfish and we've got my friend Josh Nichols on the pod this week. Josh is a mental game coach, josh is a very proficient player, having made it to the finals of the mid-amateur, and Josh I'm not trying to bring up any painful memories, but I think it's worth noting that playing in a USGA event, especially in match play, and getting that far it's not easy, it's hard. It's hard just getting there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was a long journey, it was a lot of work, yeah, but my claim to fame, I always say, is finishing second in a tournament. That's my claim to fame, not even winning. So that's where I'm at in my life.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a big second place. Finish my man.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's a big one. Some of the best players in the world amateurs between the ages of 25 and 50, I played in two of them and I played with some really good players. That was definitely the best tournament I've ever played it. Yes, I had a doubt. I've been fortunate enough to qualify for a couple of US amateurs and I knew I was over my skis when I was hitting balls next to Sergio and his dad was there and his future agent was there and there was agents on the range, yeah, and good, really good teachers and Butch Harman was there and wow, okay, but the mid-amateur is more for us working folk that still love to play and compete at a high level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the US am is. It's basically a college event. You step up on the range and you see the Stanford's and the Texas like all the golf bags. That's how I knew I was in over my skis. I made it. I was exempt into the 2018 am at Pebble, so I mean one. I was blown away by Pebble and I just I was in tourist mode the whole time, but I seeing all the college bags, I'm like these guys are. This is their life right now is playing golf. Yeah, I can't hang.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, for those of us who are have families and normal stuff, yeah, of course, yeah, exactly. But so, josh, let's, let's get right into it. Let's get into what you do for a living. You are a mental golf coach. How did you get into that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's that's kind of the story of my golf career is. I started when I was 12, played high school golf. Wasn't very good but got good enough by my senior year to get recruited to play at a D one school and just kind of hoe hummed it through college golf Thought I was going to be able to turn pro. That was my goal going into college. Was I'm going to get good enough to turn pro by the end of college.
Speaker 2:Did not move back home, you know, got a job at a little golf course and just kept trying for two, three years and just floundered, plateaued, never, never really got very good. But then I kind of got tired of that and I threw in the towel. As far as the floundering goes, I started working with an instructor out of Greensboro. His name is Robert Limville. He works with Scott Harvey, who won the 2014 US mid-am and has finished runner up in another one, and I said that's who I want to work with because that's a tournament that I want to do well in. So I went all in with him and we went hard for 14 months and at the end of that 14 months was the US mid-am that the aforementioned one that I made it to the finals and in the middle of that mid-am as I'm booking a hotel each night because I didn't expect to make it this far night after night after night, I realized this is exactly what I would be doing If I was a pro golfer. I'd be in some random hotel in South Carolina by myself, grinding for $1,000 or something, and I realized that part of it is not what I want. I want the US mid-am without the. I just love that environment, but not the hotel pro golf grind by yourself.
Speaker 2:So at that point, at the height of my golf career, in the biggest tournament, the biggest stage, I realized this is not what I want to do. So I moved on from it and went back to my instructor and said okay, what should I do with my life? I need a job now, now that I'm not playing pro golf. And he said I think you'd be really good at helping players with their mental game and because that's something that was a huge area that you have improved massively. So from that point on he gave me some players and I built it from there over the last four and a half years to be my sole source of income. So it's become a. It is the biggest part of my life right now, besides my 11-month-old baby. But other than that, yeah, mental coaching has been my life for almost the last five years.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic, and I think that's really. I mean, how much more are we going to learn about the golf swing? I mean, we've got all the gadgets and gizmos to diagnose that thing down to the nano-inch. But what's not as well known is the mind and how a strong mental game can trump a lot of physical ails. So what is it about this game that elicits and pulls out every shadow side of ourself? What is it about that, especially in competition? Just rip the mandate off. If there's anything that's going on inside, it's coming out. Just rip it off. What can we do to learn from that and use that valuable information to move forward and to ascend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, I think what it is about golf, but really I think because we live in the golf bubble, it seems like golf is this way, but high performance type of I mean sport in general that has competitiveness to it brings out our kind of base tendencies. The stuff that we have that has been most committed to habit, which tends to be kind of our fight or flight, nervousness, knee jerk reaction type of things which most of us don't like. It produces things that we don't like and in golf that produces really fast swings. I got to get the fight or flight type of feeling. That tension comes out most when the pressure is highest, just as if you were in the woods at night and you hear a bear in the woods.
Speaker 2:Your fight or flight response would bring out all of those same symptoms and you would act on those symptoms. And the same thing happens in a high pressure environment on the golf course. Your brain doesn't know you're on a golf course, so high pressure brings that out of us. Not just golf, but golf, being a lonely kind of a solo endeavor with lots of highly technical things, can lead to a lot of this is how I wish it was going, but it's actually going like this, and golf has a lot, a lot of that. But high performance sport, high pressure situations in general tend to do that. Golf is just one. That is very pungent.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well a great word too, by the way, great descriptive word. Yeah, just really potentially can pull a lot of our shadow selves out. And also one of the great things is is that it can potentially pull out the greatness within us, but we usually have to go through the valley to get to those mountain tops that we all strive and yearn to get to. And that's where you come in, josh. How do we do it? How, how, as a mental golf coach, how can we express the best of ourselves on the golf course? Yeah, also, to recognize that that there are potential dangers out there in pitfalls that will elicit some of these responses. Is there a methodology, is there a strategy that we can use to help us get on the golf course and perceive a pressure situation? And perceive it but not go into firefly. Is there a way to stay beneath it? Fly into the radar?
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's not as prescriptive as we'd all like it to be. The thing that we are all trying to be and where we play our best and research shows this this is not Josh, and Josh's experience shows this, and I think every golfer's experience shows this is being present, is the way to play our best, and everything surrounding us and the importance and the pressure and other people's opinions and the leaderboard, and the last hole or the next hole or the next shot or this lie, all of those things bring you away from the present and they bring you into the future of that par five that's coming up, that I can birdie, or other people's opinions. They bring you laterally back into the past. Any direction that isn't the present is gonna bring you further from performing optimally on that shot. So the if there is a methodology, a prescription, it's be more present, but, as we know, that's lip service, that's just words until you can actually get there.
Speaker 2:How, why can't I those kind of things? And that's the kind of work I do is someone comes to me with an issue that they think is the issue of I just can't move on from bad shots, or I have a bad hole and I can't blah, blah, blah. Or I can't start well in a tournament or I can't keep a good round going. All of those, in some way, are something's bringing you away from the present, something's keeping you from being focused. And we usually drill in from there and say, okay, why do you start so poorly? And well, you know, I'm just super nervous. Okay, why is being nervous wrong or bad? Well, okay, maybe it's not actually nervous, maybe it's more like worry or anxiety. Okay, you're anxious. Why are you anxious? And then we just drill down and it's usually something much deeper than I can't hit my driver on the first hole, right. That's a major, just a symptom of what's going on deeper.
Speaker 2:So how do you get underneath the fight or flight? It would be present, right, when you're walking through the woods and a bear is gonna attack you, you're not present. Necessarily You're worried about the bear, or the fight or flight sends you into like I gotta get out of here, I wanna be anywhere but where I am right now, and that is usually not very conducive to hitting a good golf shot, making a smooth swing, making a full turn, making a like a good, functional, technically sound golf swing or a smooth stroke or whatever the opposite of chipping yips is right, a good chip. So what creates things like the yips or snap hooking it or bad shots is kind of the your mind is there's traffic between your mind and your muscles and that's brought on from all the conditions that happen in golf. So to give a simple prescription is be more present, and that's when you gotta go deeper from there.
Speaker 1:Indeed, that makes sense and I really agree with that, josh. That's extremely well said. We're here with Josh Nichols, joshnicholscom, mental golf coach on Twitter, or now X, which is weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't. I'm never gonna say that it's Twitter. No, it's Twitter, Sorry, it's.
Speaker 1:Twitter, twitter, forever more. Elon. Sorry pal, but you know we're really getting down into the. You know the cause, the causes of these very phenomenon that a lot of people don't understand, that there are things on the golf course that are meant to be distractions. If you think about golf course architecture, you know, say, for you mentioned Pebble Beach. Everybody pretty much knows what Pebble Beach is.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a lot of distractions out there. There's a lot of physical distractions. There's a lot of what ifs that could happen, particularly on holes. You know, starting on six through the 12th hole, you can get pretty daunting out there. Eight, nine and 10, there's three of the toughest stretches of par fours that are known to man. And then you throw in wind as another potential distraction and all of these. These things are designed a lot. A lot of people don't know this, but the architecture out there is designed to distract people. Now, that's a part of it. And then you throw in our own expectations Expectations are a major distraction that's not being readily talked about.
Speaker 1:And then getting down into what we talked about earlier, our shadow selves you know, freud called it the shadow Getting down into the root cause of some of these manifestations of anxiety and has it and, as a result, body goes into fight or flight. When and as you said, with the bear analogy in the woods it's impossible to be in the parasympathetic, your body wants to run, wants to get out of there for self preservation obviously. And I think that people don't quite understand this very phenomenon in the golf course, particularly when they want to play well, when it matters most Say qualifier, talking about the mid-end you do a one day 18 hole qualifier for the mid-ameter and the body perceives it as a bearish chasing you through the woods. So how do we get out of that? How do we get out of that? So with that we can go and maybe curve our expectations and play well. And that's a big part of it, josh, that parasympathetic, that sympathetic fight or flight. How do we get out of that? Cause it drives a lot of people nuts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it does. And the hardest part is we want to fix it as it's happening, where we're experiencing these nerves or this worry, or it's starting to go south on us, or we learn about our score and we see the leaderboard and all these things and we feel the emotions that come as a result and we say I don't want to feel this way, because I play worse when I feel this way and you start yourself on a spiral now of I'm going to fight my own thoughts, feelings and emotions and because I don't like the way they feel and I don't like what they're doing to me. So now I'm going to spend the next three, four holes fighting my own internal battle instead of focusing on golf and focusing on the shot in front of me. So even the trying to get out of fight or flight mode into the present as you're out there, you're distracted from the present by your own mind, by trying to fix your own brain. So the solution isn't try this the next time you go play, because you're probably going to struggle with it. You're not going to like the way that it's feeling. All of a sudden you're turning on your awareness to your own thoughts and it feels like you just cranked up the volume to 10. And it's going to be more distracting than it's, going to cause more problems than it'll solve. So the a more holistic way would be okay. Start with a simple awareness of your own thoughts. So let's start with let's just notice when your mind wants to leave and when thoughts, random thoughts, pop into your head. And again, even starting that on the golf course is probably too ambitious.
Speaker 2:You mentioned mindfulness, meditation, yoga, those kind of things. Those are a great training ground for what we're talking about here, and not just the like. I'm becoming calm and zen and relaxed. That's a great use for mindfulness practice and meditation and yoga, but primarily for our purposes. What we're trying to do in mindfulness practice or meditation is I'm going to notice when thoughts pop in my head and I'm going to notice when my mind leaves the present and I'm going to bring it back to the present. I'm just going to exercise that muscle. I'm going to sit here focusing on my breath or on scanning my body or whatever it is. Whatever meditation you're doing, and as I'm focusing on my breath, my mind is going to wonder or what's for dinner tonight, or my cat is meowing, or I got to send that email, blah, blah, blah all these thoughts are going to pop in. So, oh, there it goes. You notice when your mind leaves the present and you bring it back. So you exercise that in a kind of a mental range ball kind of way and you've done that for eight minutes and okay, that's my range balls for today, mentally speaking.
Speaker 2:So now the next time I go play, I'm getting a little bit better at noticing when my mind leaves the present and being able to bring it back to the present. I'm not angry at myself for my mind leaving the present. That's natural, that's my brain's job. So I'm noticing it, doing what it does best is thinking so, okay, there, my mind goes. That's not relevant right now. The email that I have to send, that's not relevant right now. Let's come on back to the present and do the task at hand. So that's how we can train this. But to say the next time you go play, do this is kind of sets up a person for failure and frustration and probably a mental spiral, maybe into a full blown mental breakdown If they're trying. Why am I not feeling better? Why am I not present? I need to get present. Why am I blah, blah, blah blah. Well, you haven't trained it in a good way.
Speaker 1:It truly is a practice. That's so well said, josh. I'm so glad you said that and it truly, truly is a practice, and I think I'm going to go as far as to say that that's really a great separator and what champions can do. So you know, really, the just of meditation, as I understand it, is noticing things but not being attached to them. Yeah, you know, and so that right there, you're going to have, you're going to have thoughts, and I want the listener right now to think about this for a second. Josh, I want to get your two cents on this.
Speaker 1:When you are in flow or in zone, in the zone and we've all been there at some just contemplate this for a second. When you're in, when you're in flow on the golf course, there's things that you notice and you don't grapple onto, you don't grab on to a negative thought. The brain is designed to perceive threats all over the place and if you know that, that's step one, yeah, step two in this process or at least as I, as I understand it, is the attachment factor, and that's what meditation has done for me is to train that observation muscle that you have just so eloquently said things that you notice, the brain is going to come up with some stupid ass stuff. Gosh darn, I mean. But all the while the intention of the brain is to keep you safe.
Speaker 1:So just knowing that and then really working that observation muscle and you just kind of look like my meditation meditation teacher would say it's thoughts. You just kind of look at him as clouds in the sky, you just watch them. They're neither good or bad, they're just a cloud in the sky, simply, that's all it is. But it takes time to get to that observational place. It does take training. What do you recommend is as far as as a present time training modality? I mean, there's a million of them that work, but is there anything that you would recommend as a coach?
Speaker 2:I have. I've been asked that a lot and I I can recommend anything, but I think the best version is Something really, really simple and not super guided and not not with a lot of okay, now move your thoughts to right. So that's getting those instructions is great for it to start and it probably would be good for like the first week, but then eventually, okay, I'm going to do this with just white noise or I've recorded one where that I send to my players, where it's kind of me introducing it for like a minute, and then it's just like the sound of the ocean or something, and even that is a something good for a beginner. But after a week or two, turn all, turn it all off and sit on your couch in the quiet, where it's slightly less comfortable than someone walking you through it. So we're taking off the training wheels and we're we're letting go of the hand holding hand holding a little bit and saying, okay, you're just sitting here with your thoughts and you're not. You're not going with your thoughts, right. So notice, when you think something, don't attach yourself to it Great word that you use and let those thoughts go or stay right. We usually want them to go right.
Speaker 2:We do this so that there are no thoughts, but that's a that's a impossible expectation, right? You're like you said, your brain is designed to think. So you're sitting there for eight minutes focusing on your breath and thoughts pop in and thoughts come and go. So it's as simple as anywhere you want to be, anywhere you sit, anywhere, you walk while someone else is talking, right, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be a formal, even as formal as like roll out your yoga mat and sit on the ground. It doesn't need to like. You don't even need a, you don't even need a chair, it can be on your commute. Try to, I would say, try to do it in a non-distracting environment, mostly, and somewhere where you can kind of focus on this as a task, as opposed to doing it while you're driving and you're trying to whatever. Don't do this while you're driving, that's that no don't Right.
Speaker 2:So but sit on your couch, sit on your recliner at 530 in the morning, before everyone's awake, and set a timer for eight minutes and say, all right, I'm just going to focus on my breath for these eight minutes and when thoughts pop in Okay, when thoughts when my mind wonders Okay, they're, they're welcome to, to stay, but I'm focusing on my breath. That's my task here.
Speaker 1:Such a simple practice. That's the exact modality of meditation that I do for my breath center meditation around the name and it's incredibly simple and yet it's literally the hardest task I have ever done in my life. Yeah, okay, I have ran a marathon All right, okay, I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to lie, that's a long, long walk.
Speaker 1:But I did the Big Sur marathon one time, right and I and I trained for it and I thought that was hard. Okay, I lost 42 pounds in two months. I thought that was hard, okay, meditation to me in this way has been harder. But what's interesting is noticing that my mind is virtually uncontrollable. I think Bruce Lee said it once controlling the mind is like trying to control the wind, and that's not the intention. The intention is to notice and to build this observation muscle so that you're not attached to these thoughts. You know, a trained mind in this scenario, josh, and kind of me thinking out loud right now would be if you're walking down the fairway and you're playing, well, say you're, you turn the front nine at about three or four under right. So you got yourself a day. A day is happening here and the back nine is gettable and it's a nice day.
Speaker 1:Okay, an untrained mind would be thinking well, if I buried 10, if I buried 12, if I buried 14, I could shoot 64. I've never been that low before. That's an untrained mind. A trained mind would just be noticing those thoughts but not having virtually no attachment to it. There's like no electrical charge that's going to, that's going to grab that. You can notice it. You might even get a warm feeling behind it. However, there's no attachment to it and it's and it's like this is you hear these people like the guys and gals on Sundays?
Speaker 1:They say wow, I just, if they shoot 63 and they win? They say I just, I don't know, I just something clicked, I got out of my own way. And then the reporter inevitably asks what were you thinking about? You know, getting it to 1800 or reach Victor Hovland or something. And usually they say no, I was just in the moment, it just happened. Yeah, and what? What I think that really the point of this conversation is is that is trainable. Yeah, so you as a coach, is that one of, or perhaps the most important training, mobile modalities?
Speaker 2:It is. If for no other reason, then we've got to get you on a path to to being less pulled to and to and fro by your thoughts. As of now, you are driven by your thoughts instead of being the driver, and your thoughts are in the car with you, or not, right? So? So that's almost everyone goes on that autopilot. Most people are pretty good at being aware that I'm nervous, being aware that I'm I don't feel great, being aware that I'm you know about to poop the bed, and and being aware that I'm just I'm blowing this round, or please don't blow this round and so that that that basic level of awareness is close to being there for everyone. But almost everyone that comes to me is pulled along by those thoughts, like you said. So I don't. I would even take your example, maybe even a little further. I think a trained mind can think about like their mind can go to the score and and recognize that that's just. That's just the thought that popped in, right and and you, you gave a good example, so I love your example. I'm not attached to these thoughts.
Speaker 2:So the the brain does all sorts of, like you said, to keep, to keep you safe. It does all sorts of future predictions based, you know, simulating the future, based on past examples and knowledge. So so if a thought about I do this, this and this come and I could get to the score, that could happen in an instant, and and the way I like to think about it is like, okay, that one thought is like one box sitting in front of you. So that box is there, whether you want it to be or not. Right, the brain just thinks that thought. So you have that one box.
Speaker 2:But as soon as you say, okay, yeah, I do, like that would be, like that would be great, or okay, so then I need to, I need to hit this close to make this birdie. Or oh, shoot, I didn't make this birdie, so now I definitely have to. So you start building this need. So that adds another box onto that box. So now you don't just have that first instinct thought. Now you have a second layer. Or if you say, okay, I'm not supposed to be thinking this, thoughts go away. I need to be, I need to be clear headed. You've added another thought by saying thoughts are bad.
Speaker 2:right, yeah every time you, every time you see your own thoughts with judgment, you add another box to that stack. So there's probably never going to be no box in front of you. There's always going to be thoughts, but in order to keep them as low as possible, in order to keep the volume as low as possible to mix metaphors is by letting that one thought be there without the need to do anything about it, the need to go with it, the need to get rid of it, right? Okay, that thought is there, I've got a shot to hit and that's all that matters right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that takes that we talk. It goes back to a so well said Josh. It goes back to the training. You know, whatever training that is, you know you and I are talking about meditation and creating. You know, meditation to me thus far has created just enough space in the moment where I can notice the thought and not immediately gravitate to where the mind goes. That's it. Yeah, you know the the.
Speaker 1:You can notice the what ifs, but you don't have to be attached to them and that's that's where I think a lot of golf instruction in my opinions missing the boat with this. Because you can. You can, josh, you could. You can hire the best instructor in the world and build an incredible swing motion. You can go and have a TPI instructor and get fit, get mobile. You can have, you can eat. Well, you can do everything. You can stack all of the cards in your favor physically.
Speaker 1:But this is this really is the bridge to unlocking those things on the golf course. Because if your head's going and you have all of these attachments you know particularly guys and girls that are trying to make it, if they have sponsors, they got people that put up, you know, 100 grand for them to go out and play for a year or two. There's a lot of pressure there, what it, what and these what ifs can be really debilitating and get in the way to. You know, we want to, we want all of our talent to come out and to be expressed on the golf course. You know, and I think that this really is a massive bridge to bridge that gap.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and the. The reason why that is is because the brain controls everything. So everything that you feel like you're training your muscles to do, you're training your brain to do it Every there is. You know, fitness creates more strength. But when you are grooving habits, like in a, in a golf swing motion, you're grooving neural pathways in the brain.
Speaker 2:Right, there's no such thing as muscle memory. Your muscles don't have memory, your brain has memory. So when you're training your brain into a habit, it commits it into your brain. So if there's mental traffic between what you have trained it to do and the muscles, right. So if there's traffic there in the form of distractions, future thoughts, sponsors, your buddies, opinions, you've had too many beers, whatever it is Like, if there's, if there's that traffic in any form, it it hinders that message that comes from the brain. Right, there's nothing. There's. No, there's. There's some nuance to this, but there's no. There's no such thing as just an autopilot golf swing that, no matter what, I'm like I could be off in La La Land and I'm still going to make this good golf swing there. There is nuance to that because, like, if you've committed it so deeply to habit a golf swing so deeply to habit. You could make it with a bear coming at you, right yeah, if it's grooved so deeply and strongly.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:But for everyone else everyone listening to this, it's it's a matter of okay, you've worked on your swing, why can't you bring it to the course? Well, now, all of a sudden, you've got all this traffic happening in the form of expectations and nerves and score and consequence and importance and money on the line or whatever, and your brain can't send those signals as well anymore because of all those things. So working on your psychology is the most fundamental thing you can do to that's what we say get out of your own way and and bridge that gap right so that your brain can send those signals freely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're looking for mind body cohesion. Yep, you know big time. That's so well said, josh, and I'm really glad there are folks like you out there teaching this, because in my opinion, this is I'm not going to say that it's an unexplored entity, because it certainly is, but here in the United States, particularly with the game of golf, I feel that we have gotten just really out of balance. We've got so many teachers that are on Instagram, that are on YouTube, and there's some very curious and innocent folks that are looking for information to get better, and I feel, as if, that there's so much left brain technical information out there that that's one of the layers, that's one of the boxes that many of the boxes that people bring to the first tee, and it's no wonder they can't get out of their own way.
Speaker 1:A lot of this information is is not being talked about regularly, as if, as as the technical side. The technical side is important, all right, there's no way that I'm poo pooing that you can give the dolly llama a brand new set of Cleveland irons and or whatever, and he's going to shoot 180. He might have a great time and he might be laughing at himself, right? But you know, I mean, that's not what I or we are talking about whatsoever. That's an important piece of the equation. However, I think that this, this conversation here, needs to be talked about with regularity and needs to be on the front page of golf digests and golf magazine and golf channel. That we need to have people like you that are equally talking about this particular phenomenon that we're talking about. That really separates, you know, people that are trying to get better versus people that are on the other side playing good golf most of the time. And that is possible, that's very possible, provided somebody wants to go deep into this and do the requisite work and have a practice such as meditation, mindfulness or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:I even tried something different on the golf course the other day. That was interesting. I was excited to share this with you. Let's hear it Kid in meditation, kid in meditation. So walking meditation, which was proliferated by Zen masters, by people in Buddhism, that that after long periods of sitting meditation, they would walk in a circle. People call it a Zen circle or whatever, but all it is is just awareness of your feet hitting the ground. Once again, a very simple practice. My good friend Mia Ham. She said be where your feet are.
Speaker 2:That's what came to mind, for me too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Be where your feet are, but that's where that came from the Kenan walking meditation. So the other day I'm playing golf and I'm walking and I just simply focused on the sensation of my feet hitting the earth. Simple practice. But once again I noticed how quickly my head started to flip from thought to thought, all while keeping my centralized focus on my feet hitting the ground and being where my feet were. When people hear this for the first time, they don't quite understand the depth of it and the practice, Simple as it sounds, difficult to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason why is I think it would go to golfers in general tend to be fixers right, they see a problem and they want it to not be anymore. They say, okay, I want to be at point B and I'm at point A. So what can I do to go from point A to point B? And the counterintuitive nature of what we're talking about is accepting that point A is okay, yeah, and point A being not like status quo, but point A being my thoughts.
Speaker 2:I don't need to fix my own thinking. My thinking isn't broken, it just is what it is. I will have thoughts and they just are. I don't. Just because I think about someone else's. What someone else might think about me doesn't mean that I need to attach to it, doesn't mean that it's a wrong thought, doesn't mean that it's good or bad, it just is.
Speaker 2:So the difficulty of even telling someone do this meditation practice, just notice that your feet are hitting the ground. The difficulty would be okay. I'm trying to focus on my feet, but my mind keeps wondering and I'm losing my mind because I just can't focus on my feet. What's wrong with me? So immediately you're labeling all your thoughts as bad and you've sabotaged the purpose of the activity, and we see these activities as something to be good at, and I'm doing it wrong, so I need to do it better. And while there is a maybe a I'm more experienced at this, there's not a I do it well or I do it bad. It's just a I doing it well. Is is being okay that you're bad at it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's being okay that your mind wonders. It's being okay that thoughts pop in and your mind flitters to and fro. So doing it well is actually embracing that you're bad at it, and that's what's so counterintuitive about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's really well said, josh. I could not have said that better myself. Such a great explanation. And that I guess, from what I see on the golf course of people, is that, by and large, people are really hard on themselves, and I mean unusually hard on themselves, some to the extreme, and I think that that in and of itself is also a massive distraction, you know.
Speaker 1:So the, the, the practice, whatever this practice is we're calling it meditation at this point it's really just designed to notice oh, that's, that's the practice, and I think I made this mistake and I also it's not a surprise that I made this mistake on the golf course and I still do to this day is labeling thoughts as good or bad, simply than just what is okay, that's just the thought. We don't have to assign a meaning to it whatsoever, we don't. And that, my friend, is called free will, which we are not aware of a lot. And in this, this, in my opinion, this should be required. Teaching kids, yeah, teach kids how to meditate so they can get out of their own way and not have all of these charged thoughts coming out there where they have to grab onto and identify with immediately. I mean, I can imagine all the guys and the girls that play that are the best in the world. They're human beings, so they are subjugated to the same damn thoughts that we are. They handle them differently. They really do, and therein lies the great lesson. How do they handle it differently? By this very phenomenon of what we're talking about right now, whether they're aware of it or not. They may not even be aware of it.
Speaker 1:You know, my favorite player in the world right now is Cam Smith. He might not even be aware of it, he may have just been born. This may be his gift, and then it's really expressed on the golf course. He said something. The other. He said something when he won the British Open last year that in my opinion it went right over people's heads, and I paused it and I rewound it a few times. He said the reporter asked him what is the difference between you now and you when you first came out? And he said well, I've always been very comfortable, being uncomfortable, and if I was a reporter, knowing what I know now, I would say well, stop here, explain that. What's your interpretation of that, josh?
Speaker 2:So I think someone like Cam Smith comes across as if he might not be aware of what's going on, but that sentence right there tells me he has an immense level of awareness of I. If he was like I don't know, then okay, you're not, you don't have a great sense of self-awareness, but for him to even know what discomfort feels like and I'm okay with discomfort, that's, that's incredible awareness that a lot of people don't have. And the add on term that I would add to awareness would be non-judgmental awareness. So when we talk about meditation, that sounds like the actual formal practice of what we're talking about. But the, the global concept that we're really talking about, is non-judgmental awareness. Right, so I can, I can see discomfort and not judge it as bad. Right, I can experience the immense pressure that comes with trying to win a major and trying to chase Rory McElroy down, and doing it at the on the 150th anniversary of the open, and all this at at.
Speaker 1:San Diego. So it's right.
Speaker 2:So it's just, it's immense discomfort probably, and he looks even keeled. I'm sure he's not. If he's talking about being okay with being uncomfortable, being comfortable with being uncomfortable, that means he's uncomfortable and I'm assuming that that was extreme level of discomfort and he he didn't run away from it, from the discomfort, like most of us do. Most of us push that eject button and that comes in any kind of form of like self-deprecation, cracking, then cracking another drink, cracking another joke, whatever it is, or WDing.
Speaker 2:I experienced a lot of that working with players one-on-one. I get a lot of players that say I just don't want to show up tomorrow and or I don't want to show up for the rest of this round. So all of that is labeling discomfort as something that I cannot accept, right? I I judge it as bad. So Cam is has a very, very strong ability to experience discomfort and say all right, you're welcome. You know, sit on the bench next to me, you can. You can hang out, I've got golf to play. Whether you're here or not, I'm going to be playing golf. So discomfort, come on, bring it on. That's that comes. That's part of the territory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's such a superpower to have that awareness, and that's really what is being cultivated by the practice of meditation. Yep, that's really. You're just continuing to create space between how can I best? Stimulus and response. Yep, you're really creating that space, and sometimes you just need a little bit. That's all, especially in the heat of the moment, josh, I'm, I'm, I'm blown away right now, my man, I'm blown away by this conversation. This conversation needs to happen regularly For those of us who love this game, want to get better.
Speaker 1:I'm right, a part of that I certainly don't know at all, but I love the game of golf. I want to continue to get better. And for those of us, such as yourself, who have been playing a long time, who have developed a good swing pattern, good enough to go out there and be competitive, good, good enough to go out there and shoot under par, this really is the final print here. In my opinion, this really is the? Is the? Is the the bridge gap, as we said before, and also, too, one of the things that I've noticed as a result of meditation is my ego is starting to lose some of the attachments, which has been nice. So some of those external frames that we talked about, wondering what people are going to think. Or am I an A-hole? If I shoot 77 or 80 or whatever, am I going to go commit Harry Carey, or am I a bad person? I used to think that and I'm such a bad person I'm never going to do anything right, just all of that stuff that starts to fall away a little bit in the practice. It really does. It starts to fall away and I've never really noticed. Jack Nicholas really beat himself up. Maybe he did behind closed doors. Tiger did a little bit, but when Tiger got away from a shot, when the shot was over, it was over, it was over, and he talked about that over and over again.
Speaker 1:I think Tiger's a big meditator, big visualizer. That Jay Brunzo, the psychologist that he worked with growing up. They really practiced this. And I think about some of the great athletes who have been very open about the practice. Kobe Bryant won, michael Jordan won, lebron James, another one. There's race car drivers Joe Kovic, who just won the US Open Again, potentially one of the greatest male tennis athletes of all time, huge practitioner of meditation, and these are things that aren't. It's not an elective. If you want to play well, if you want to really express all of that you can on the golf course. I think this is a fundamental practice. My opinion what are you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if you also think working out is a fundamental thing to do to become a good golfer and you think that hitting range balls is fundamental, and yet you don't do anything to exercise your mind other than, okay, today when I go play, I'm going to try to move on better, and that's that's like your. It's much worse than tripping at the finish line. It's like I'm after mile one of the marathon. I quit or I trip and I stop and I break my ankle. You, you're not even. You're not even giving all these other things that you do the opportunity to show. That's what I always say is the purpose of the mental game, or golf psychology or whatever is to give your physical game the best opportunity to show. So so I think it's table stakes to do things like meditation and and that is what I always try to preface it with is that is very prescriptive. But in the same way that I would say, yeah, you got to go hit range balls. Well, duh, you got to go hit range balls. But what the heck do I do when I go hit range balls? Right, it's not enough to just say go hit range balls, okay, I'll go hit 90 balls. Why am I not any better, I'll go do meditation. Why am I not any better?
Speaker 2:So you, you have to go into it with the right intention and the right purpose.
Speaker 2:And most people's purpose is okay, I'm just going to, I want to get quiet and calm and relaxed and you might get that feeling as a result.
Speaker 2:But really the purpose I'm doing it for is to notice my thoughts and not attach to them. And at that, to me that is the most easily translatable thing over to the golf course. Because if you just take one hole out of your 18 holes, the bombardment of thoughts that you're going to experience and the times that your mind wants to leave, the present that you're going to experience on just one hole, maybe even one T box right, just take the first T box of a golf tournament an insane amount of thoughts, feelings, emotions, other people, opinions, whatever score, tournament importance, whatever. To be able to have a good relationship with those thoughts that will inevitably happen you have to do some kind of practice that gets you more used to awareness of those thoughts and not attaching to those thoughts. And to not do that and expect it to go well is is like I don't hit any range balls the month leading up to a golf tournament. Okay, you might do well just randomly, but chances are you're not giving yourself the best opportunity to do well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with that, Josh. That is absolutely well said, my friend. You know, I think there's been a little bit of talk about setting intentions. Before somebody goes and plays right Like, okay, josh, I'm, today, I'm going to set an intention to be more present, how about reframing that? What would you recommend as far as setting an attention for somebody who's listening to this maybe for the first time, or they've dabbled with it a little bit? What would that intention look like? If somebody is really considering or looking at this, would it be to notice thoughts like today I'm going to go out and I'm just going to notice my thoughts? Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's probably a pretty good one. That's gonna. That might open up a can of worms for somebody, because now all of a sudden the volume is cranked up. The thoughts have always been there, now you're just kind of noticing it. It's like there's a party next door. It's quiet until you open the door.
Speaker 2:right, I'm gonna start noticing what's going on at this party. It's gonna get really loud. So, so there it would be again with this preface right, all of this has to have a preface to so that it's not just prescriptive. But start to notice when your mind wants to leave the present. And step two would be be okay with that, right. Don't judge yourself for those thoughts. Don't don't beat yourself up for how many thoughts pop in your head. Be okay that your mind thinks that's what it's designed to do. So an intention to set.
Speaker 2:Something I always like to tell my players is when you pull up in the parking lot to the golf course, most of us just get out of the car, grab our clubs, go to the range and before we know it, we're off and run in and we haven't really paused and stopped. So when you get to the course and you turn off your car and it's real quiet, take 30 seconds or something, 10 seconds a minute, and say okay, who do I want to be today? What do I want to do today? How do I want to, what do I want my relationship with my own thinking to be today? Those kind of things. And I think a good, a good response would be. I'm going to be okay with things how they are, not how I wish they were all day, because if you're all day wanting wishing things were different, man, you're going to be frustrated all day. You're going to beat yourself up.
Speaker 2:You're going to be angry irritable, you know, angry at someone else, right? I wish you were different. So, okay, today things are as they are and that feels like we're kind of taking an apathetic, passive role in our round. But I think it frees you up to be more competitive, because now you're not, your mind isn't everywhere else, wishing everything else was different. You're able to focus on the present. Everything else can be what it's going to be. Okay, you can say what you want to say. Okay, this tournament has this such and such importance Okay, cool to all of that. The fact that I can see all of that as it is frees me up to be in the present, and that's where you're going to play your best, that's where you're going to be able to compete and fight and, you know, go at it for the day. So I think that's the best intention to set.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a mic drop right there and that really correlates, shush. That really correlates with one of my great inspirations, moon Norman. That said to play golf with an alert attitude of indifference. I never understood that. I never understood that until I started meditating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't heard that one, that one's good.
Speaker 1:An alert attitude of indifference, you're. You know. That's talking about acceptance and it's also talking about what Cam Smith says about being comfortable, being uncomfortable. I'm very comfortable being uncomfortable, an alert attitude of indifference. It doesn't mean that you, you can't. Just you hear this.
Speaker 1:Oh, you just got to block all of that stuff out, block the noise out, you know, stay above the noise. The Bose commercials with the headphones, stay above the noise. And the reason, the way to stay above the noise is to actually embrace the noise and to notice that it's there. And that's really kind of a Mongolian reversal, if you will, based on what we've been trained and what we've been taught here in the United States. It's like no wonder we're all over the board, no wonder we weren't really taught to notice the board and to notice the you know, how are actually, how are human, mammalian brain works.
Speaker 1:And this right here, this conversation, really, I hope, reaches and provides as a catalyst to those who are, who are stuck. There's a lot of stuck people out there, josh. Yeah, stuck people on the golf course. A lot of good people that want to know that, that are begging for this information. Yeah, I've noticed it. I've noticed it just in my own circle, at my own club, and from my friends who are out there playing pro golf. You know, yep, and it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's really prevalent, mostly because of, as I mentioned, golfers are fixers. We, we want things to be better and different than they currently are, and that's that's really great. That's a great trait to have, because without that trait you would take a passive role in your own golf game. You would never try to improve. Sure, and I did not like the game that I had at one point. I needed to change my swing, I needed to change my work ethic, I needed to change my body, I needed to change my nutrition. So I needed to go from point A to point B on so many things. But on my mentality, I had to let myself be okay with point A. The closer I got to I'm okay with me as I am mentally speaking, and I'm I'm I'm okay with the result as it will be and I'm okay with my thoughts as they will be today and the discomfort that I might encounter, the pressure, whatever. I'm going to be okay with they, with those as they are.
Speaker 2:The closer I got to that, the more freed up I was to just send it Right. I was able to freely let it go, because now I'm not so needing this round to go. Well, this round can go, however, it's going to go and I'll be okay. Like it might sting, I'll feel uncomfortable, I'll be disappointed, I'll be frustrated, I'll want it to be better or whatever, but it's, I'll be okay. So I can send this golf shot down down the hole and if it's not, books out of bounds. I got to read it and hit another one and, whether I like it or not, that's it just is what it is. So, getting closer to seeing things as they are, not as you wish they were, that's, that's the anti fixer mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's that. There's the part of like. It sounds like a Zen riddle. You know we want it. We do want to fix things, but at the same time, we have to notice what truly is happening If we really allow the left brain to take over in the analysis of what is wrong. Man, there's some rabbit holes down there that people have disappeared into, never to be found again. Yes, and you know, that really is the intention of what we're talking about, right?
Speaker 1:now is to provide some hope that there is. There is a way, there are ways to get better that people may not completely be aware of. So thank God that we've got we've got Josh Nicholson's out there that will, that will help folks get better to explore this very phenomenon and very important topic of what we're talking about. And really, at the end of the day, this game will provide those of those who are not aware of it. At the end of the day, this game will provide those of us who do work to build that observational muscle and in this case we talk about meditation as a vehicle to do that and to come out the other side and experience. You know what would it be like? Well, josh, let's let's leave the listener with this. What would it be like if you could play the game of golf, mostly with a bandit? If you have a sense of internal freedom, your internal environment is that eye of the storm, because there's going to be storms all around you all the time. The nature of golf is it's I swear it's it's like to elicit every freaking distraction that the universe can come up with, whatever the architect, the weather, the tournament or the situation that you're in. It's almost like a great design to distract the hell out of you. Yeah, and we can actually be in that calm. We can be the eye we can be, we can have our internal environment as such, by noticing all these things but not becoming attached to it, and that that in and of itself, is going to allow us to swing out there with that freedom that we desperately desire. I know. For me personally, I would love to go out and play golf with the ultimate expression of freedom. That would be really, really cool.
Speaker 1:I think Tiger did it for a long time. I really do. I think you're right, you know, I think he did. You don't have that sustainability. I think Jack Nichols did too. Bobby Jones believed that the tournament had already be. What was this? What did he say? He said I have always thought that the winner was already chosen, so that just allowed him to go out and play his game. Yeah, yeah, all of these little tidbits that are worth the analyzing and studying and incorporating. Josh, how can people find the best way for people to find you?
Speaker 2:Well, first off, jesse, I really appreciate you having me on and I appreciate guys like you that want to proliferate a good message. Not that I'm I mean, first of all, you're scraping the bottom of the barrel, going for me, but I really do appreciate your knowledge and your, your awareness of these things and your, your curiosity to learn more. So I do want to say that, but, thank you. To find me, the best, the best place would be the mental golf show. After you're done listening to this episode, go over to the mental golf show. After you're done listening to Jesse and Justin talk, go over to the mental golf show.
Speaker 2:I do solo episodes, that where I just kind of tackle the topic, and I'll also host some guests, like we're doing today, to learn more. For me, to learn more and to kind of proliferate a good message is what I try to do as well. So that's a good place. And then my Twitter account X account is Josh Luke Nichols at Josh Luke Nichols, so you can find me there. But those two are the main, the main two spots right now. So that's that's where I try to learn more and spread. Spread what I learn and spread good knowledge, not just the garden variety stuff that we, that we see too much of. I try to try to spread a good message, so I appreciate the opportunity to do that here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And then how can people find you to work with you one on one?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, sure. So my website is Josh Nichols golf dot com and that's that. You'll get some information there from me. You could also send me an email to mental golf show at gmailcom. I need to get a, I need to get an official email for myself, but right now that's, that's my official email Send. Send me something there If you want some more info. Or just go to the website. You can contact me there. I get more info and figure out kind of what one on one sessions look like. But yeah, I, I appreciate the any I'm taking, taking new customers, clients, always until I'm not, and then I'll turn you away, but for now I still am.
Speaker 1:Well, that's great, josh. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to come onto the golf. I got his golf podcast and I am sure we're going to have Josh on again very soon. He's going to have to not just deal with me, but he's going to deal with Justin. Next time that we're going to get, we're going to go a little bit deeper into this very topic. That, in my opinion, is massively important. It is so completely understated right now and it saddens me, but it's such the state of the industry. Sure, it's nobody's fault really, it's just it is what it is. But for folks that really want to kick their game up and to find out a little bit more about themselves, I'm going to highly encourage people to reach out to Josh.
Speaker 2:I'm going to hire people to reach out to you. And the best part of it you don't even really have to get off your couch to work on this kind of thing, so that's, that's what makes it the most accessible of any of these things you can have. You can have a let you don't? You don't need Tiger Woods's golf swing to improve improve your game considerably, so that's that's the best part about this kind of thing.
Speaker 1:That's right. That is absolutely well said, Josh. Thanks for coming on, pal.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Jesse. Thank you.