Get set for an enlightening journey into the intricate world of golf as we chat with golf instruction extraordinaire, EA Tischler. Prepare to be amazed as EA unveils his multidisciplinary approach to coaching, with a special focus on neurobiology, biomechanics, and mindfulness. Uncover the secrets of becoming a meta-aware golfer and understand the crucial role of physical well-being in enhancing your game. EA's personal experiences with golf legends like Phil Mickelson, Scott Simpson, and Peter Jacobson are sure to inspire and educate.
In this episode, we discuss everything from golf swing biodynamics to player analysis, golf swing torque, and ground forces. EA's insights reveal misunderstood concepts such as vertical forces and early extension, commonly referred to as "goat humping." We also delve into the subject of golf certification, different swing techniques, and their impact on a player's performance. You'll hear about renowned golf instructor Ben Doyle's influence, the idea of an "athletic sequence," and understanding one's unique pattern in golf.
Whether you're a golf enthusiast or a professional player looking to improve your technique, this episode is a goldmine of information. Not only does EA shed light on the intricacies of golf instruction and swing techniques, but he also shares his experiences coaching players like Scott McCarron and Brent Jobe through their injuries to peak performance. Brace yourself for an enlightening conversation that's guaranteed to enrich your golf knowledge. Don't miss it!
Get set for an enlightening journey into the intricate world of golf as we chat with golf instruction extraordinaire, EA Tischler. Prepare to be amazed as EA unveils his multidisciplinary approach to coaching, with a special focus on neurobiology, biomechanics, and mindfulness. Uncover the secrets of becoming a meta-aware golfer and understand the crucial role of physical well-being in enhancing your game. EA's personal experiences with golf legends like Phil Mickelson, Scott Simpson, and Peter Jacobson are sure to inspire and educate.
In this episode, we discuss everything from golf swing biodynamics to player analysis, golf swing torque, and ground forces. EA's insights reveal misunderstood concepts such as vertical forces and early extension, commonly referred to as "goat humping." We also delve into the subject of golf certification, different swing techniques, and their impact on a player's performance. You'll hear about renowned golf instructor Ben Doyle's influence, the idea of an "athletic sequence," and understanding one's unique pattern in golf.
Whether you're a golf enthusiast or a professional player looking to improve your technique, this episode is a goldmine of information. Not only does EA shed light on the intricacies of golf instruction and swing techniques, but he also shares his experiences coaching players like Scott McCarron and Brent Jobe through their injuries to peak performance. Brace yourself for an enlightening conversation that's guaranteed to enrich your golf knowledge. Don't miss it!
Hello and welcome to this December edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. The next two weeks are going to be there's going to be a lot of information that's going to really require you to do a deep dive into thinking about what this man who Justin and I had on a couple of months ago. His name is EA Tishler and, finishing my thought, when we originally recorded this conversation it took three hours. So my trustee editor and I, ian, we decided to break it up in two parts and really highlight each individual segment. So the next two weeks is going to be on a man by the name of EA Tishler. So for those in golf, golf instruction, high level play pretty much know who EA is. If you're new to the podcast and you haven't heard the name before, you're going to hear it now.
Speaker 1:Ea is the current director of instruction at Olympia Fields Country Club, is the author of several books on golf improvement, on what his philosophies are, and I'm going to keep this intro as short as possible Out of respect to your time and dive right into the episode. All I got to say is that this man is, quite frankly, possibly one of the more educated golf instructors I have ever come across. He is multidisciplinary as far as coming from a holistic sense. He represents in fine detail a holistic approach, not just your golf swing. He takes into account the neurobiology behind things, the biomechanics behind things, becoming a meta-aware a great term that Jim Waldron uses being aware and bringing that into your game awareness, mindfulness, coming from a physiological standpoint, getting your body right and how that will affect your internal representation of what you can bring to the golf course. Ea teaches all of this stuff and is continuing to educate himself and bring his knowledge and his expertise and his ability to coach to not only players but coaches as well. Ea also spent some time in the Santa Cruz area in the wintertime. I'm going to try to get him to come down and play some golf, but it's a big file. It's a big conversation. I know that you're going to love it.
Speaker 1:When Justin and I recorded a couple of months ago, we were messaging each other on the side because EA just kept coming out with truth bomb after truth bomb and mic drop after mic drop, and it really is a fulfilling and very enriching conversation. So get out your notepad if you're at home and jot these things down. I would recommend listening to both segments. They're approximately an hour and a half each, so they're on the long side, but this is where the conversation went, and just think of yourself as sitting across the table at dinnertime having an audience with this man, and how fascinating and how thrilling and how enthralled we would all be, just with the information download. It's fantastic. Ea himself is a fine, fine player, has played at an extremely high level. So he gets that side of it, not just the coaching side, but brings everything to the table that someone would want in a golf coach. So I want to give thanks to EA and also Justin. This one we've talked about for the last couple of months and it's finally here and it needs to be put out. So once again, enjoy this one.
Speaker 1:And once again, I am starting a little bit of a side hustle, where I feel my expertise in golf can help you, the player, maybe untangle yourself from whatever ism that you're experiencing on the golf course. If you're confused about something, or if you need some help identifying some blind spots in your game. Maybe you're confused on which direction to take. Maybe you're confused on swing methodologies. Maybe you just have general questions about the game that, quite frankly, you haven't found the answers to. I'm offering this service and I'm doing a little pilot program, so spend an hour with me for super cheap and just see where it goes, and I know that I can help anybody who reaches out to me.
Speaker 1:The easiest way to get a hold of me is on my email JP5150VHatGmailcom. That is, jesse Jay is in Jesse P is in Perryman. 5150, v is in Victor H is in Henry. At Gmail, there's something going on with the Flag Hunters website. I'm not. I'm going to figure that out with my web designer. And and then the Jesse at FlagHunterGolfcom will once again be available. You can also reach me easiest on Instagram at FlagHunterGolfPod all one word. And you can also reach Justin easiest at elite golf swing on Instagramcom. And then, lastly, if you want to get one on one with EA, he's probably the easiest to be reached on his website at NewHorizonscom All one word. It's actually excuse me, it's NewHorizonsGolfcom All one word.
Speaker 1:But once again, thanks for listening and please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. We've got some exciting people coming on. I cannot wait to put these out. I've got some people already in the bank that we're going to put out, but the next two weeks are going to be very special folks. I love all of you. I appreciate you for listening and supporting the program. Justin thanks all of you as well, and, as we're approaching Christmas, I hope everybody is getting in the festive mood and those of us who can still play golf, I hope you're playing well, and this is what this podcast is designed for to help everybody play well. Cheers everybody. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:Hello, this is Jesse Perryman of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast, once again bringing you some more truthful information as it relates to the game that we all love with all of our hearts.
Speaker 1:A lot of good stuff that's going to happen. In this conversation. We've got Justin Tang, my brother from another mother, who you are all well familiar with at this point. Justin is one of the great teachers that I would consider in the world, not just for his educational background, but his ability to translate information to the student in real time to help he or she get better in that moment and to have a deep understanding of what the journey that he or she is on, and I think that's a specialty in and of itself. Justin has it in spades and he coaches at the Tanah Merah Golf Club in Singapore. And our guest, our mutual guest today, is a man by the name of EA Tischler, who, I just found out, winters in Aptos, california, which is about 40 minutes north of where we're at here in Monterey, california, and spends the summers in the Chicagoland area, just outside of Chicago. And EA hey, thanks for coming on, pal. Give us a quick background, your quick background.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having me First off. I appreciate it. Yeah, so I grew up in Northern California, been playing golf since I was nine. Self-taught, didn't have any instruction growing up. As a matter of fact, the first time I ever had any coaching at all was from Fred Shoemaker I'm sure you're very aware of. He's been my intergame coach since 1984. And so I've been an intergame coach a long time as well. So I've done a lot of research. Just in biomechanics, I've read.
Speaker 2:I've got a collection of I don't know a thousand golf instructional books or something but I've written 28 books myself and I've got six more that I'm presently writing and I've got another something like 14, that's 50 in all. Outlines that if I live long enough that I'll get to Golf magazine top of the ninth teacher. Director of instruction, olympia Fields Country Club played for UC San Diego and won over 30 professional golf tournaments and 15 course records stuff like that. Went through some health issues but got healthy again, so I've been actually playing some senior golf. Now I'm 57, and looking forward to playing as many years as possible.
Speaker 3:You heard about hey, thanks so much for coming on this podcast to spend some time with us and to dispense your wisdom with all this. I think you and I connected almost 10, 11 years ago through our friend, ralph Perez. Yes, you remember the Gotham golf club, yeah, yeah, and I remember telling you this that back then I didn't know what the hell I was talking about, so your wisdom was wasted on me. But the funny thing is this it incubated all these years and then suddenly just everything started to make sense and what really stood out to me back then was how great of a communicator you are your patient and clear, and I think communication is one of the most important skills that a teaching professional or a teacher of any subject could have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. If you're not making a relationship with the student and the individual and being able to communicate on a level that they can accept, then it doesn't go very far.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and before this podcast we had some conversations. You're telling me about the stuff that you were doing. 57 years old, You're an extremely competitive golfer. Just like you to tell us some of the top golfers that you have played with throughout these years. You obviously come from UC San Diego, so one of the names on the list would be Till Mickelson. Tell some of those stories, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting. Phil was a little younger than I but the first time I ever saw him play I catted for a teammate of mine that was playing in the city championship and they got paired together and so my teammate asked me a caddy form. So I got to watch Phil, and when we were done because at the time I'd already had a lot of the biomecounter patterns that are in the secrets of your swing books down and, as you know, I'm sort of very anal I study things for a long time, I kind of attack it from all angles myself and I don't really present it to public until I've got years under my belt of addressing things.
Speaker 2:And I have private conversations with teachers about the ideas and hash it out, but I don't really make it public until I really feel like I've got a thorough understanding. I really I read a lot of Bobby Jones and I thought his way of expressing things that were absolute and things that were fundamentals and things that were preferences were so clear that I ought to do as good a job as I can to present it kind of the way he did. So anyway, at the end of the days that he got to play with Phil, my teammate asked me what do you think about Phil Nicholson? And I said he and he, mind you, he was 16 or 17 at the time. I said he's an absolute phenom. I said he's going to be in the Hall of Fame someday. I said but he's always going to be an erratic player. If he doesn't get his bottom can next right, because you know he just has a lot of wasted emotion in this swing and that ain't to go for broke player. He plays like honor pomegranate loves playing that way. So you can't take that away from him. And and it's kind of been like that his whole career.
Speaker 2:Interestingly enough, him and I were both members at he grew up at a place called Stardust in San Diego, california. I used to play with his dad and his brother there, and him and I were the two lowest handicap players in the club. We were both 4.5 handicaps and the club closed at one point because it was redesigned and they built another golf course there. So I like to say for eternity him and I are the lowest ranked handicap players at that club. But Scott Simpson was a member there as well. So and I spent a lot of time with Scott over the years.
Speaker 2:As you know, I've coached Scott McCarron and Brent Jobe and Tom Pernese and Peter Jacobson a lot, of, a lot of great players. I've had the influence of being around. So I've had sort of a rich history and experience working with these players, very honored that they many of them came to me for help and I've been coaching players since I was in college. I had players from other teams that came to me for help, actually when I was playing against them and I've done a lot of work with helping players that got injured regain their games.
Speaker 2:There was a I don't know Jesse, if you remember there was a player named Jeff Bloom and he played in Canada. That was a sting accident. He would summer down in San Diego and anyway, after he got his back operated on a couple of times. I helped him get back to winning, getting back to professional golf, but without a lot of experience with that, with players like Brent Jobe and Scott McCarron and so forth. So and it's really a tribute to understanding your body mechanics and when you understand your body mechanics, even when you've had injuries, you can actually still get to the top level. In 1992, I had a very severe accident in 1996. This is that I've never played golf again and I got all the way back to a plus five handicap after that.
Speaker 2:Then at a physical fitness or a physical therapy process that's used all around the world. Unfortunately, we didn't happen it, but my orthopedic surgeon in Hawaii was a professional athlete. He was actually the third string quarterback behind Joe Montana and Young Took 49ers. Nobody really remembers him, but I did, and my physical therapist was the next professional baseball player. So when I invented this process and showed it to them, we proved that it worked and they passed it around and it's used all over the world right now. So knowing the body and knowing how to use your body most efficiently is actually. You know how you reduce injuries, but also when you've had injuries, you get back to playing some of your best golf. So I went on a little long there to answer your question. I got up. No, no, no, just keep going on.
Speaker 3:I wanted to ask you you mentioned earlier that the Phil Mickelson's mechanic back when you were 16, 17 were not compatible. So what are some of these things, in brief, that you saw way back then and are they still present in this thing, I think I think a lot of them still are.
Speaker 2:A few of them still are present and I look at some major dynamic patterns, especially his structural biomechanics. As you know, justin, reading the secret spone of your swing books, there's 12 biomechanical influences. I look at from a structural standpoint and pretty much his structural biomechanics have been intact most of his career because just as a young player he kind of found out what worked best for him, like he's an under golfer, he's a center anchor golfer, you know stuff like that, and but it was his dynamic patterns that were a little off and that largely comes from when we're kids and we're looking for power and we're greatly influenced by the conventions that are being taught at the time, like drive the knees and keep the head back, or you know you got to shift laterally to get a lot of power and you're swing, all this sort of stuff that we've heard over the years. So basically, in a short story, when we look at dynamics we swing in three dimensional space and I look at are the actions in all three dimensions complimenting each other or do those in one direction? Are they overpowering the other direction and not complimenting? And then that creates areas where you need compensation.
Speaker 2:So in Phil's case, his lateral motions were greatly sort of outpowering his rotations and his verticals, especially his rotations, were still fine. He had plenty of rotation, but they were a little bit. They could get a little out of sequencing because the lateral's were so overpowering in his swing. So you think of his knees and his lower body and how much side to side motion he would tend to have in this swing, especially when he was younger and until he learned how to center up and stabilize his lower body a lot better. I just figured he just wasn't going to have the accuracy we was looking for, but he's got some of the greatest hands ever in the game. So you know, when you have some of the greatest hands ever in the game, you can actually, you know, compensate for some of the true meanings. And of course, the greatest players in the world have so much talent that they often compensate for their, their biomechanical shortcomings, whereas the average player rarely can't do that.
Speaker 3:You know, your body of work, particularly the secrets of owning your swing series, is extremely impressive, super in depth. There are three volumes right now, going on to four. To me it's always been. I've always regarded it as the personification of the golfing machine. A lot of people talk about Homer Kenney's work, but it's really dry, it's not really an application. It's Homer telling you what's going on. And then, three years after I was done with the golfing machine, along you came and then I went hey, this guy is the personification of the yellow book. What led you to create golf swing biodynamics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, bioswing dynamics came about because Mike Adams gave me a call one day and he actually ended up flying out to California and we spent three days together. He had me fly back out to New Jersey and we had a round table meeting there. I stayed with him while we were there and in the round table meeting.
Speaker 2:There were three biomechanists there and about 22 top 100 teachers, and Mike asked me to do a presentation and I presented on how we use vertical force for power and golf swing and nobody was talking about it back then but I had actually worked on force plates for many years and seen the data and recognized patterns that I believe you know proved it. My dad was an engineer for NASA. My stepdad was our top ranked physicist in the United States, worked in all our top secret programs. These guys literally could do the math in their head. So it's interesting having them as people to give me feedback, because when I would present them with something they would say to me stuff like I see why you think that would be the case, you know, but here's the truth. And they'd set me straight when I was off and if I had something very correct they would say no matter what anybody says, don't ever let them tell you wrong, because the math proves it's right. So I was, you know, very good at sort of picking to my guns when I knew something was correct. So when I presented this vertical force and information the three by McKinnis they're all told me I was wrong. One of them said that we only use vertical force for friction. And I said no, that's one of the three ways we use vertical force in the gall swing and there's what we call synchronizing the verticals, which is vertical kinematics, which is actually, you know, addressing the vertical kinematic sequence in the gall swing. And another one talked about the kinematic sequence and said well, every our study showed it's all about rotation. I said, wait a second, your studies on rotational kinematics. I'm talking about ground force kinetics. I don't see how a study on rotational kinematics can disprove ground force kinetics. I want some studies out there that you guys do on ground force kinetics to disprove what I'm saying. And so I learned a long time ago.
Speaker 2:People say why don't I save data? Jeff Smith, a friend of mine in Indiana, let you know that he's been with me a ton of times when I'm working on with a lot of technology and the technology kind of wraps out. He calls me the technology cultural guy. So anyway, you know, with enough of that happening in life, I pretty much figured out that even when I collected it and people looked at it they'd say, well, something's missing or a viscer, that they'd always have some sort of argument for not believing you and wanting to discredit you. So my choice for going about it after that was just the challenge people that had the well wherewithal and technology to do it, to do studies and say, okay, just don't prove me wrong.
Speaker 2:So, justin, as you know, about five different groups of people went out to work on vertical force and they all came back and they all showed how it actually was being used for power and golf swing and that I was correct that actually we want peak vertical force to happen right before delivery begins and that's what helps us get the energy into the club, to get the club to go faster in the in plane direction. And so you know that was one of the big things. And of course, we'd already had a bunch of information on what torques and different ways of doing torques. Also looking at torque in the frontal plane, which was largely not being talked about. I actually had a conversation with Chris Conlow and Dr Juan and Kwan's office one day and I said, now that we got the vertical force, you know, stepped on track and people are really studying this, I said we got to clean up the torquing information and they've all said, no, we know all about it, it's torquing, it's the force couple, you know, with both feet.
Speaker 2:And I said, really so then why can I stand up on my left leg only with my toe, my right foot on the ground, create the torque and play it just as far? And Dr Kwan didn't believe it because he hadn't seen it. But Chris actually said, yeah, he didn't play it just as far doing that. So I said there's obviously some other directions that we're looking at and actually frontal plane torque is one of the ways that we look at. So tilters, for example, are people that use a lot more frontal plane torque, and horizontal golfers obviously use more of that torque horizontally on the ground in the way that we sort of normally think about it. So, yeah, so that's actually where it's sort of all this whole ground force explosion that we've been talking about for the last 10 years or so happened because in 2009, at that roundtable meeting, I sort of challenged the bottom mechanists to do it.
Speaker 2:And I actually asked them to treat him at one point. He wasn't at the meeting, but I asked him at one point you know why do people say that this is wrong about using vertical force of power? I said you guys use force plates. The data is there. And he said, honestly, he says people really haven't asked us to look at it, so we haven't looked into it in depth until you know you brought this up.
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's where that all started from and that's kind of where we are right now and there's still, in my opinion, there's a lot of missing information in this and, like I talk about your ground force pattern, not ground reaction forces, because our body puts the force into the ground, okay, so we got to use our muscle system to do that. So the particular way that you do that most efficiently, based on your dynamic patterns, is your ground force pattern. So obviously your body is responding to the way that your muscle system works to put force on the ground. But then your body actually has a response to the ground reaction forces coming back into you. So there's these two full, you know, response systems that we have in the body just due to the way that we're interacting with the ground. And then there's a third response on top of that, based upon how we want to get that energy through the you know kinetic chain, you know, into the club and then into the clubhead speed.
Speaker 2:So it's a very complicated system and there's a lot to be learned. As long as I've been studying it, I tell people all the time I don't know all the answers, that's for sure, and we got a lot more to learn. And because it's so complicated, there's a gentleman named Paul Wood who's a scientist for Ping. He was having a conversation with Scott Lynn at one point and Paul said to Scott says you work with people. I don't like people. People are messy, golf shafts are nice and clean.
Speaker 1:And I agree we're very messy.
Speaker 2:There's, there are more possible valid patterns of golf swings and there are people walking the planet, literally. If you do that, the math and the golfing machine, there were over three trillion. By the way, I started reading the golf machine when I was 16, I was given it. I understood it, I read it. I would talk to my dad about it. My dad's like how do you understand this stuff? I said I don't know, I just read the book and I get it.
Speaker 2:I found a couple of flaws in the book that him and later on my stepdad confirmed that were flaws and and and not to say that that's a bad thing or not to say anything bad about Homer Kelly. Homer Kelly's body of work was incredible. I still love it to this day. I think the short side on the golf machine was that it wasn't actually applied to the human body biomechanically and that's why it was a little stale, as you would say, justin, that it didn't really have the application of the flavor of really being able to bring it to life and all the different ways. Interesting enough, I was never certified a golf machine instructor. Even I truly understood it. I found most golfing machine instructors had one or two preferences up to three, even though the golf machine says there's over three trillion ways of doing this.
Speaker 2:So my impetus for writing Secrets of Owners Swing was to actually set the foundation for how we can get to all the patterns. And the first three books and the fourth one, which isn't the works, are on structural biomechanics, but there's a whole series of them designed for the dynamic part of biomechanics to come up, and that's where the real juice of it all is. You might say is when Mike and I shook hands on bioswing dynamics in 2009. After that roundtable meeting, we literally, at dinner, decided to call it bioswing dynamics and I said in the future, bioswing dynamics is more in the dynamics than it is in the structural stuff, because the structural stuff is very much understood right now.
Speaker 2:If you look at functionality, got TPI and all these people have nailed down functionality and how structure influences functionality, and so we have the structure, the 12 structural influences, we have those pretty much nailed down and really I mean I have that stuff where I ever met Mike that's the whole reason why Mike came to meet me and then we have a whole slew of dynamic patterns that we look at, and so understanding the dynamics is to me more important, and the reason is is that force creates motion. So when you put force into a system, that system wants to move the way the system's designed. If you apply power to the wheels of a car, the wheels are going to turn. It's designed to work that way.
Speaker 2:If it's in good working order and so when you apply force into the system properly, the body wants to move the way the body wants to move. And then, if it doesn't look like something you're used to, seeing it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just that that's how that body is meant to move more efficiently. And as long as you can create club speed and apply it consistently in a way that's not injuring you, it's very valid and a very efficient way of playing.
Speaker 3:Thanks for that, EA. I wanted to point out amen to what you said about the ground reaction forces. I think a lot of people misunderstand GRF and what they do is that, oh, let's try to move our feet in such and such a pattern. It may work for some guys, but for the majority of people it's not going to work, because the ground reaction forces are simply the result of the spine, of the spine movement, which is expressed then through the limbs. So just simply moving a feet without understanding where the movement or the dynamics originate from is not going to help anyone. Then you mentioned a little bit about the flaws of the golfing machine, the principles not being applied to the human body. Are there any other things that you kind of found out in your intensive study of the golfing machine? This is for my personal satisfaction, because I'm a TGM nut and I think we spoke about this maybe 10 years ago as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, some of the obvious things are just with his idea of what compression is and how compression works and where the forces go from the club through the ball. I mean, some of that stuff obviously has been pointed out, just not being as correct as he has written it.
Speaker 2:Again based upon his understanding and his views of how the swing worked and how the club was moving. I don't fault him for being at any particular way. Look, I'm not a physicist and you know, like you know my stepdad and my dad, they understood the science of the stuff. I just noticed something was wrong and I kind of had a sense about it. I've had a good math mind my whole life and so when I had some suspicions, they looked at it and they were the ones that said, well, wait a second, yeah, this is not exactly correct, and this is why I mean they knew more about why it was wrong. I just had suspicions about it.
Speaker 2:But you know, most of the stuff in the book is pretty good. In other words, I think most of it has application if you understand the human body and what that means to the human body and part of the sequence is only your swing by understanding the differences in bodies Like here's one great thing that I don't like to tear things down, I'd rather take the great things out of it and expand on that. So here's one great thing that anybody can take out of the golf machine. He talks about issues of sameness and issues of difference.
Speaker 2:So like when we talk about fundamentals in golf fundamentals are the same things that everybody needs to do, and so those are issues of sameness. How you get those fundamentals applied can be an issue of difference, and what creates that difference can be the way you perceive the game. I like to draw the ball, somebody else likes to fade the ball. Somebody likes to play it low, somebody else likes to play it high. Some of those differences can be in the body mechanics. Because of how your body works, you're going to get to those things differently. So, like I took a and to finish that point really quickly. So when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of things, the things that are different are the things that ultimately make the greatest difference. So if you're not applying the things that are different properly, the difference you're going to get is in a very negative direction, if you want to say it that way, or a nonproductive direction. If those differences are identified properly and you're using them effectively, the difference becomes much more productive in your performance. So that's actually like one of the big things that you can take out of the golf machine.
Speaker 2:He also says stuff like look, look, look, you know, and so you know, which most people don't do. I can't tell you how many times people send me information or they ask me questions and they say I've watched all your videos and all this stuff. And I can tell by the questions they really didn't watch all the videos. They maybe gave them a once over or something, but they didn't really take the videos and watch them over and over again and look, look, look, look. Because the people that do tell me that every time they watch them they see something new. And I do the same thing when I reread a book and I, you know, rewatch videos, I've learned something new.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget. I read the Jack Nicholas's full swing when I was 13 and something stuck out to me. The golf swing is one continuous flowing motion. It stuck out in my mind so much I would have sworn he wrote it a hundred times in the book. So later on I was writing a book and I wanted to quote him. So I figured out basically I can just open this book up to any page and I'm going to find this quote.
Speaker 2:Well, man, I it took me hours going through the book. He really only said it twice in the whole book. But why did that thing stick out in my mind, you know? And why did I miss so many other great points that he had written in the book? And when I was going back through the book I'm like how can I never solve that before? It's just the way we are right. We only retain 10% of what we hear. Even when we're reading. We don't retain everything that we're really reading. We have these filters and these biases that get in the way of us. Really, you know accepting and interpreting things fully when we're, you know being influenced by them for the first time or, you know, or experiencing them for the first time. So so yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:You know, I think, that there's a lot of things in the book. You know that you can take away, that you can apply, and don't look at the things that were bad and throw it all out just because there's a couple of bad things in there, when there's so many great things in the book.
Speaker 1:Well said, I think, justin, there you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we lost your voice of the hair there.
Speaker 3:Thanks, Yair, so earlier you spoke about vertical forces, early extension or goat humping, and some people in the community would describe that. That is, to me, largely misunderstood by the general golfing public, both the student and the professional. Yeah, so one of the, the so-called on top pattern or the upper core player. Can you talk a little bit about that and segue that into a high level overview of the main patterns that you teach or you classify the swing into?
Speaker 2:Yeah, certainly so. Like the early extension, most people look at it as four verticals, but the reality is it's a four horizontal that sets up their four verticals. And not only that. It happens mainly because in the transition, golfers don't create enough flexion in the transition and do what I call torquing back into the platform so that by the time they're ready to go into delivery, they actually have this pattern of going from extension to flexion and back to extension. So if they don't have the flexion to go back into extension properly, then they have to make compensations, and early extension is just one of those compensations.
Speaker 2:And so I have some videos out there on YouTube and stuff where I talk about.
Speaker 2:You know there's posturing up is one of the terms I use that you're trying to get to, and it's not necessarily that an on that, a upper core player has to posture up.
Speaker 2:By the way, I mean, if you've seen some of Doc Wright stuff, which I really love, and Larry Rinkers kind of got his version of it, but they say that, like all some of them, some of the people out there are now saying that all upper core players are on top golfers. Well, I'm an undergolfer and I'm an upper core player, so that's just not necessarily an absolute. So what I one thing that I learned years ago is that when I originally was writing about a lot of stuff, I noticed tendencies and I fell into the trap of thinking tendencies were more absolute than they were. And when I started realizing that they were just tendencies and they weren't absolute, I started asking the questions why did I think the tendency was an absolute? Because I had to challenge myself, because it was my own misconception. And what the reason was is that the way that you get the pathway you take from the beginning to that point where you are seeing that tendency is largely influenced by a lot of things conventional teachings, certain beliefs and all these things.
Speaker 2:Well, based upon adhering to those beliefs and those conventions. It would seem like that pattern would be absolute. But take a different standpoint, come to it from a different direction, with different conventions and, all of a sudden, different beliefs and all of a sudden you realize that it wasn't an absolute at all.
Speaker 2:It was just the end of that journey that got you there. And again, there's lots of different ways of doing it. So yeah, as far as upper-core players, or you could be a side-on upper-core player, you could be an under-upper-core player and you could be an on-top upper-core player. And keep in mind, when we talk about these patterns, these under-and-a-side-on to on-top, that's a trail arm action. So imagine if your trail arm form was facing upward, coming into delivery, that would be an under-pattern. If your trail arm form was facing more down, that would be an on-top pattern. If it was facing side to side, that 'd be a side-on pattern. And there's a continuum there. There's not just three options. There's side, under and underside and there's top cover and side cover. So there's this whole continuum there that you fall into. And so when we look at the core, there's three main core regions upper, middle and lower. But each core region is divided into three subregions. So there's actually nine core regions and Doc Wright and I are good friends. He was presenting this at one point and when he said there are three core regions and we started talking about subcategories and I said to him, doc, I said. I don't know how many there are, you're the guy that does research in this, but I can tell you there's eight or nine, just based upon my understanding. If we divided into upper and lower, there's eight core regions. And if you divided into upper, middle, lower, there's nine core regions. And he went away and did the research and came back and found out there are nine core regions. So that's some really interesting stuff. But again, you can be an upper core player and you can be a side on golfer, an upper core player being under golfer, an upper core player being on top golfer.
Speaker 2:However, one of the matchups that does happen that you're getting to is when you're an on top golfer, the more on top your trail arm is during delivery, the more downward you're extending, and the more downward you're extending, the more the body has to posture up to match that. So they look like they stand up more and I call it stand up posture release. But it's really. Think of doing a squat and coming out of a squat. If you squatted down and you had a lot of weight, you had to stand up. You would not pull your pelvis underneath you like the early extension move and then try to stand up, you would just extend from the joints, your butt would stay back and it would slowly come off the wall until your butt was underneath you. And so I had people do a lot of jump squats and then turning jump squats at the torques and the vertical patterns into working together.
Speaker 2:And that type of extension is what I talk about when we're talking about posturing up. So there are golfers that seem to stay more in posture or look like they rotate in posture, you know, through the ball to their full extension. Under golfers do that, and so they don't look like they posture up as much, but they're still extending in their way. They have lots of extension patterns in the pelvis and the spine going on.
Speaker 2:And then side on golfers are like Tiger Woods are kind of in between Tiger, kind of he has his two squats in his move but he comes into delivery and then as he starts to extend, his head moves up and back. His head did not stay in place, so he's what we call a post up, posture release player, and that matches more side on golfers. So those are some of the matchups so I think you're looking for on top golfers. They have a stand up posture release. Side on golfers have a post up posture release and under golfers have a more rotate in posture release, and that's just based upon that influence. By the way, because there's all these other influences in the golf swing, you throw another influence in there and then it makes it look different. So, like I always say, you got to know what all the influences are so that you really know what your best swing looks like.
Speaker 3:So you use the terms absolute and continuum. Most teachers sell only size eight shoes, when their students wear anything from size five to 13. Your method of teaching is clearly a very in depth way of teaching. It requires the brains and, obviously, commitment for an instructor to fulfill such a certification and reach that level of knowledge. And the irony, I find, is that there are a lot of instructors out there who say that our technique is the be all and end all of the game, yet the depth of their knowledge doesn't even come close to what we've discussed in the last half an hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that a lot of people they want to keep it more simple because it is messy. I mean, it does take a lot of studying discipline to understand all the viable patterns that are out there, because I'll never understand them all because, like I said, there's more than there are people walking the planet. But if I can understand all the influences then I can help anybody get to their best pattern. And so people ask me all the time well, give me a tour player I can watch that that I should copy. Well, there isn't one? Okay, I did that a long time ago. I fell into that trap when people asked me and then all of a sudden we get to something and they needed a different than that player and they said well, you told me to copy that part. Well, in reality, you asked me to give you somebody to copy and so, based upon the things we were working on, that's what I wanted you to copy.
Speaker 2:But in your mind you said you want to copy everything, even though you asked me for an example of the things that we were talking about and I wasn't specific to say, hey, just copy them up to this point and then don't copy them anymore. That was my fault, but so I don't do that anymore, or I'm very cautious to do that. When I do it, I really preface it on. Okay, you can copy them in this spec, this influence or that influence, or two or three of them, but you won't be able to copy them and everything, because how many golf swings in history have we looked at that actually look the same? The only two I can remember are Adam Scott and Tiger Woods, when they were both working with Butch Harmon, and they're both about the same height and they're both very neutral as far as all their limbs and dimensions are, everything are concerned. They're both near center anchor, they're both side on golfers. They both had enough similarities that they could actually look the same, and there's some of the most talented players ever played a game. So when their coach told them to do something, they did it and it ended up looking very similar. But of course, very quickly Tiger's swing no longer looked like Adam Scott's. And when Tiger worked with different coaches and then he started emulating things that these other players that were working with that coach did really well. Then his swing would change and of course, it wasn't necessarily the best thing for Tiger either.
Speaker 2:And I think Tiger now really I think he understands, now more than ever, what his best biomechanical pattern is, and we can only hope that his body can pull up long enough that we could see some of his greatness, because we've all been blessed with it over all these years. I mean one of the greatest players ever to play the game. So I hope he's able to get healthier and healthy enough to continue to play some great golf, golf and enjoy this game, because I think he's truly starting to understand his biomechanics. I actually wrote a chapter about his biomechanics and one of my books, as you know, might remember reading that, justin. So, yeah, so he's doing a lot of those things that I suggested that would fit him in there, not because of me, I mean. It's just he's come to define these things through a lot of influences over the years you mentioned, jeff.
Speaker 3:Smith earlier. Is that Rina Golf Pro?
Speaker 2:So there's a few different Jeff Smiths. Okay, and so no, that's not radar Golf Pro Jeff Smith. There's actually two Jeff Smiths in Indiana. This is a different Jeff Smith. He's a top 100 teacher. What's that?
Speaker 3:Is he a short game guy?
Speaker 2:No, he coaches every. He coaches all aspects of the game. He's probably the out of the. Have you ever heard of those golf guys? Podcast.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you might want to hear them someday. So anyway, him and another gentleman do that and but he's, he's a real. He teaches a couple of places outside Indianapolis. He's a real good coach, real good friend of mine, and he helped Mike and I with a lot of the education, setting up, educations for bioswing dynamics and yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's very very educated on the game as well. It's, you know, James Hong. Him and James Hong are great buddies. Oh yeah, James, they did some videos for iconic golf that you may have seen along the way as well. So is the hunger certified by you as well.
Speaker 2:The hunger has actually been to our certifications. And yeah, he's, he's, he's got you know some of the lower levels under his belt and but he's, he's got a pretty good grasp of the things that we've done. And again, it's kind of like you look at golfing machine instructors, people did it different ways. Our whole idea with, like I'm already, when I coach coaches how to coach, I don't want them to mimic me. I want them to learn the information, the information or tools. I want them to learn how to use the tools and I want them to be able to apply them and communicate them in their own way. So Mike has his preferences and his way of doing things. I have my way of doing things and they sort of diverge. Him and Terry roles are doing their own thing now because they see it more the same way in the ultimate golf lesson, which is fine. You know, I've always believed that it's about understanding all the viable patterns and I want to know everything that's valid, and so it's very important for me to to go down that, that path and stay on that path. And so I have a lot of people that I've actually had personal. They come to watch me coach and they come for me to coach them and I actually have tested them personally. So those ones that are certified by me are the ones that do all the different patterns and those that were more certified under Mike's tool edges, you know, follow more of Mike's preferences and so it's different, just like you see in golfing machine instructors. You know the famous Ben Doyle has his preferences. He literally said that you know he taught a body you know I just lost the term but the body control, pivot arms control body, right. So he said he coached the body control arms method. That he actually. He actually coached an arms control body method If you actually looked at most of how he coached players, and that fact I'll never forget. I went down to see him because a friend of mine was taking lessons from him. He was actually Scott Boynton, northern California. Jesse, I'm sure you know who Scott is. Scott was my boss, he was the head coach I worked at and his friend played at the course all the time and they actually hired me to do some work for them in the summers. But anyway, so Steve calls. He said, hey, I want you to go see Ben. So he sent me down there.
Speaker 2:So I'm down on the driving range and I'm warming up and I just got through to a two iron and I'm flying two irons out the back of the range down at Carmel Valley and he looks at me and he's like, he's like, oh, you know, you do a pretty good job with lag, but you can prove. And I said, well, what do you mean by that? So he put me on the tire and and I so I swung. Of course my club had hit the tire and had a little bounce and it slammed back on the tire, which he didn't like, because if you're a hands controlled pivot guy, you can just pin that face right on the tire. But if you're a pivot controlled hands guy, it bounces a little bit and he says, see, so your club bounces, you don't have enough lag. I said, really so. Then he put me on video and he slowed down the video. He goes well, your angles are just as good as Ben Hogan, so you know. So I wouldn't change that so it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 2:You know just his version of things. But he liked to say he coached the pivot control arms version. But for most people he actually, you know, coach an arms control pivot version. So then if you went to Tom Osello or some of the other teachers, they would teach differently. Right, you go to Lynn Blake, he's going to teach it differently. So everybody sort of has their own preferences in there and it's based upon our experiences. So we can only coach from our experiences in our knowledge base. So we all do it a little bit differently and there's nothing wrong with that. I just strive to understand as many valid patterns as possible.
Speaker 3:I guess the three of us are mutually connected through Ben Doyle. Jesse spent a lot of time with Ben. I spent time with Ben when I graduated from college in 2005. I spent half a day with him and then I rocked out on his first lesson. He goes away from Singapore. Okay, hit some seven irons for me. And then he was pointing to a QuailLodge heavy one. So I'm like, okay, you show me the fireballs there, yeah. So I started ripping a few seven irons. Then out in the distance I heard hey, why are you hitting balls under the first fairway? Then, like Ben, I think I'm aimed in the wrong direction. Oh, like, oh, okay, more, right. So back then I can't remember how old he was, but he was getting a bit hard to hear.
Speaker 3:Well, I have video stories, man.
Speaker 2:I have video him doing some demonstrations on the range and he literally the camera space on all right and he's at. You know his end of the T, he's on right, so he turns around and he starts playing shots down the line and there's people on the team I got video of this, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, he was a unique person. He's a wonderful man, wonderful knowledge base, you know, and great to have. He's like Fred Shoemaker. Before I went actually I asked Fred what do you think should I go? Fred said, look, whenever you have the opportunity you go and you take what you can take that you feel works for you, you keep it, you throw everything else away, but you don't forget it. And so that kind of what Fred said to me.
Speaker 2:So I went and I saw him three times and because the gentleman that wanted me to go paid for me to go three times and and yeah, it was really nice that, interesting enough, in 1991, at the Queen Mary Open, I was warming up on the driving range and this two different days this Mac had watched me. So anyway, I met Mac of Brady the one day. He walked down to the range and his daddy wasn't there. He saw me swinging and he's went to go sit on the chair behind me and my wife tried to stop him because the bench was wet and he sat down on it and then she gave him a towel and all this. But he sat there and watched me for at least a half hour before his caddy got there and then this caddy got there and we will continue warming up and we went out. This was for the first round and we played in back to back groups and after the second round we sat down, eight went to the parking lot and he ran out the parking lot, stopped me in my ex-wife and said hey, I want to talk to you and I have talking to him for three hours, whether it was two and a half or three and a half or three, I don't remember exactly this.
Speaker 2:One and 57 years old, remember. And but you know he asked me about my golf swing. He invited me to come back to his camp. I'd already had a lot of my stuff done. I grew up about Mac that you know, I kind of was going on my own journey, and but he asked me about my golf swing and some things, and so I explained to him the anchor system. I said Ben Hogan rotated around his front leg through the ball, sam Sneed around the center of gravity and as you know a lot of people are told to load the right side.
Speaker 2:His initial, one of his initial coaching influences was a guy named Joe Norwood in California who was a right side load guy and so and then I explained how the shoulder alignment like. If you, if your body's not balanced properly, you can go running, your shoulders will be open to your hips and it could be your knees and your feet as well, and if you're a rear anchor, your shoulder just flows. So he actually went away from that conversation and he created some things. He created a front ankle Hogan model, a center anchor Sam Sneed model, based upon Gideon Aerial's information, bi-macal information on Sam Sneed swing.
Speaker 2:And then he created a rear anchor Trevino model and and then I explained to him what I call pelvic thrust, because it was one of the questions he had about my swing, and I said it's a power move. I was a gymnast and a martial artist and this is something that you do to create power and support your back. For me, growing up, I saw everybody throwing their backs out as over golfers, because they all grew up in the drive knees keep the head back air or reverse the air, and people were, you know, getting injured. So I'm like well, the secret to that is using your core and getting your pelvis working properly. And if you have glute squeeze when your pelvis comes underneath you and your pelvis is pushing in the direction of rotation, you won't hurt yourself. So I actually added that into my golf swing. And then I had a move I called counter extension, where when the club went to extension in my case it was about parallel to the ground my upper body was pulling back away from my arms extending, and so I explained to him that dynamic that I used for that. Well, he ended up calling it the look and he incorporated that look into their coaching, so and and so, and I've said this story over and over again, I've written in the books over and over again and nobody's ever refuted it and so.
Speaker 2:But that's a lot about where that information on anchoring and front anchoring came from. My dad was a front anchor golfer, I recognized it. Arnold Palmer was, I recognized these things and I and and David Ball was a front anchor golfer. When he played best, when they moved him to rear he kind of got all over the place, and that's when some of those ball striking issues happen. But I recognized very early on how important it was to have an anchoring pattern that fit your body. And so I went out to study it and I found out that, based on how the distribution of mass in our body is, balanced was one of the major influences. You can have scoliosis and other spine issues and stuff. One leg longer, shorter than the other, but the main influence was the distribution of mass in the body.
Speaker 2:And so I actually I wrote about this in a book and I said someday they'll come up with something like an x-ray that they'll tell us this and they did eventually it's called a dexa scan, and so dexa scan literally tells you how much each arm weighs and leg weighs, and distribution of mass left or right side of your body, how much your head weighs. All this, they can do all this, and I did a study with this on a bunch of students and we found out that it perfectly matched their from. The most front anchor golfer had more mass on the left front side of their body. The most rear anchor golfer had the most mass on the rear side of their body and everybody else fell in between cleanly, and so that was kind of neat to see the data prove out that that's the case.
Speaker 3:In brief, how many people have you certified in your program? I know it's closed for the moment.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so I mean level one over the years, because they do certain certifications in Europe that are a little different than we did at the Orlando shows when we certified people there and then I have the people that came to me individually to get certified.
Speaker 2:But at level one there's over 400, even though on my website I don't even know if I had 100 listed on there. Most of people listed on my website were all people that I had direct contact with, but not everybody gave me their information to put on there as well. But easily over 400 people at the level one you know level and more than that actually came to it. Those are just people that tested out at level one, not people that came and actually were studying it and just never got to the testing level.
Speaker 3:When will you resume certification?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm looking to package some stuff up, maybe later this winter and, again, mike and Terry are doing their thing. So I don't want to have it be a conflict or anything. I just want to present a certification based upon my information and the things that I'm doing. I've had a lot of people asking me over the last couple of years and more and more people interested in learning the way that I do it and wanting to be more hands on in coaching the way that I use the information. So there's some demand for it and it may just start off with some Zoom sessions over the winter and eventually I'll create a website where people can do some online work and stuff like that. But yeah, certainly there's a lot of demand. I have a lot of people asking. So you're one of the people that asked me recently when I was going to do it, because you're interested in learning some more about it. So certainly you know there's a lot of people like you that are interested and I want to get it going at some point.
Speaker 3:So give us a flavor of a lesson if Jesse will rock up on your lesson T and say hey, coach, I need 25 yards. I want to be competitive at senior events, I need 25 yards.
Speaker 2:So that's a good thing. I'm glad you prefer that, because I always ask the student why are we here? What are you looking for? You want to do a whole interview thing, all that? So they want more yardage. So first thing I'm going to do is look at where are they currently producing power. So how are they applying the forces? Then I do some screenings based upon are you dominantly more of a trail leg player or lead leg player, or do you use both legs more equally on the golf swing? So look at a Fred couples. It's pretty clear that he applies vertical course just through. His lead leg is trail legs almost out of it. You look at a guy like Quartz Capka. He's really pushing hard off his trail leg. I pushed off my trail leg as well. So when the people started looking at the pressure traits, pressure traces with the pressure mats and everything, everybody won these nice clean lines. But I'm a trail leg guy. I have a lot of trail like action in my swing, so I have a diagonal trace with a Z back in it.
Speaker 1:And everybody said oh my God, that's wrong.
Speaker 2:You can't you hook the ball if you do that. I'm a fader, I play a power fade and I have a diagonal Z back. Well, that Z back, that Z back strong I'm like. Why? Because it's correct. Because when I'm actually going towards vertical force you can see peaks out of both feet because both legs are pushing as I'm going towards vertical force and I've had lots of players that literally have blown out left knees and stuff and they just can't use the lead leg the way they want.
Speaker 2:I teach them how to use the trail leg to create their vertical force applications and they all pick up 15, 20 yards. I mean like nothing. We have a teacher, Jeff Butts and Indiana, that was in that case and he's older than me, but that might not call him old or anybody's older than me, but he had physical issues and he reminded me there of the day that I thought we picked up six or nine miles an hour, club at speed. He said no, he picked up 12 and like three swings and he was able to sustain it after that. So how we use the ground is a big part of it, but how we use our body to get into the ground is even more important.
Speaker 2:And again are you dominating me more? Lead leg, trail leg or both legs? Look at a player like Sam Snead. He's more equal in his legs. He had an equal squat in the knees and they equally sort of straightened out, didn't they so? Especially his heyday, if you look back in his heyday. So I'm going to look at how efficiently they're using that. I'm also going to look at how well they put force into the handle. So, like I always say, everybody wants to smash it. That's why we have a thing called a smash factor.
Speaker 2:Nobody wants to popcorn ball around the golf course. So a lot of people are actually their engine is strong and they're using the engine really well, but they're actually not putting forces into the handle very well. So, like K coach, k motion has a metric about how much energy, what you know how, what's your efficiency of getting the energy from your hands to the club head? And like every time I'm on it, it's like my I'm like 20% higher than the per average and not the senior tour average, the average in that efficiency. And they always, they always go. Why is that?
Speaker 2:Well, I teach a lot of this smashing. I have this, the rope training that I do. I have what I call swing wiffle training. I got these swing wish trainings, but I do all these things that have to do with putting kinetic forces into the handle and using those forces properly, and I train a lot. So I want to see whether that's part of it, okay. And then there's a third area to your torso. How well are you using your torso? Because ultimately, we're linking the kinetic chain. We got to get all this energy from the ground or from the body into the ground, back through the body, through the kinetic chain and out to the distal end. So I have a. I have something that I call the three power segment screenings that I do, so I have this really long rope with a handle on it.
Speaker 2:It's like 40 feet long or what have you, and you've seen it like in Mach three type training and stuff like that. So I have people just work from waist high to waist high, just using their lower body and getting them to learn how to snake the rope properly. I want to see it snaking cleanly and I want to see force being applied to the rope properly. And, like everybody, walfers are either swing right golfers, swing left golfers or swing straight golfers. That's another one of the dynamic patterns. I would call it Literally. Like when I swing the rope you can see my rope going left and a swing right ballpark swing in it. You can see it snaking out the right and a swing straight golfers kind of snakes more straight out. So it's really neat that you can see those patterns and get it cleaned up. And I have this thing called a power whip. Well, it's six feet long. It's. It's got a big noodle and it's got some alignment sticks that are taped together in middle noodle with one alignment stick out the end. It's got a whiffle ball on it with some lead tape at the end and you hold it across your torso and you learn to just turn and get that thing going as fast as you can. So you do like a lot of speed training. You do eight reps as fast as you can and then you rest for a minute. So we do a lot of that type of training with power whiffle so, and I video the players doing these things, and then I have a thing called a swing whiffle which is just a shaft with a pickle ball on the end and some lead tape and then we swing it back and forth eight times as fast as we can. So the players literally can feel what where their leakage is. There's their leakage in the lower body and the torso section or in the arms and club getting out to the distal wind.
Speaker 2:And so I had a college player. He's six four, not this winner, the last winner and he's a member. They're members at the club at Olympia Fields and so his highest club that's been with his driver was 112 miles an hour. So he's six four, he's in his twenties and his highest club at speed was 112 miles an hour. And here I am on the same system. I topped out at 126. He's like how the heck can this be Right Now? Mind you, justin, that's my top speed, that's not my plane speed. Right, that was my top speed, okay.
Speaker 2:And so, anyway, we went in and we did the three power segment testing and we found out where his leakage was. And I gave him the three exercises, the train, all winter long. So he came back three months later. He was averaging 118 to 20 miles an hour in his play swing and he topped out at 123 miles an hour before two months later or so later, he beat my 126 miles an hour and I think he's at 129 now. So, but in three months he made that change and it's sustainable, like he's kept it all year on and so so, yeah, so when I look at power, I want to find out you know, what are you doing? Well, lower body, midsection, upper body, where's your leakage? And obviously we got to clean up that leakage and we got to link it all up so that you can apply it.
Speaker 2:So, in through, there's different ways of using like each the power wiffle the long rope when you're doing the lower body. So, for example, some people are more stabilized and anchored into the ground when they're transferring energy to the distal end, and some people have way more active feet and are firing from side to side. So I call this your athletic sequence. So think about Dustin Johnson and David Ball. They're really, they're. They're firing across the platform to the lead side, pretty much from the transition. But then you look at a guy like Jimmy Walker and in the transition he stabilizes into the ground, he whips the club through and then his body follows his arms to finish.
Speaker 2:Well, why does he get to be so long and break all the rules? And we don't, right? Because, like I read a quote by Elon Musk today. It said that there's laws of physics and there's laws of man. I'm paraphrasing so I'm sure I didn't get it exactly right. He goes I see man break laws of man all the time, but I don't see men break laws of physics, all right. And so, like we were doing a book at one point and we were showing on force plates what it looks like if you're front center and rear anchor and they didn't have a perfectly center anchor person.
Speaker 2:So Scotland said you gotta get EA over here. It could demonstrate anything. So I came over and said well, what do you want? He goes. Well, we need somebody to demonstrate the center anchor perfectly. I said, look, I can get it to look that way on video. But I said I can't fool physics. Physics is gonna tell me, no matter, tell you, no matter what I do, that my pattern is left of center because I'm gonna left the center anchor golf. And sure enough, no matter what I tried and I exaggerated it I could never get the data that looks perfectly centered. And so you can't fool physics, right. So there's like there's three versions that I look in the lower body. There's three versions I look in the torso section and there's three versions I look at in the swing with the distal end. And once you understand your pattern, you got to learn to link it all together. As soon as golfers do that, I don't care if you're 80, 70, 60, 40, 30, they all picked up clubhead speed and they all find it more sustainable.