Golf enthusiasts, get ready to elevate your game! We've had the honor of hosting Hal Sutton, a master of the game of golf, whose insights cut as sharp as his swing. Throughout this episode, Hal, with an illustrious career taking on legends from Jack Nicklaus to Tiger Woods, opens up about the essence of becoming a true golf champion. He doesn't just recount victories and accolades; he delves into the importance of mental fortitude, the art of resilience, and the profound impact that a multi-sport background can have on a golfer's approach to the game.
With stories of iconic mentors like Jimmy Ballard and Byron Nelson, Hal takes us through the nuances of strategy and technique that can only come from decades of experience. His candid revelations on overcoming adversity, the pitfalls of modern golf's obsession with technology, and how feedback from the right equipment can dramatically enhance performance provide a comprehensive look into the sport's evolving landscape. His conviction shines through as he emphasizes authenticity and personal intuition over conforming to the mechanics popularized by coaching trends.
Wrapping up this masterclass, Hal reflects on the psychology behind golf, sharing how the distinction between a teacher and a coach can influence a player's success. His personal anecdotes about strategic thinking and planning, akin to those of golf greats like Nicklaus and Woods, underscore the timeless strategies that transcend the fairways. From Jim Furyk's unconventional swing to Hal's own golf course design philosophy, this episode is a testament to staying true to oneself, building a legacy, and embracing every aspect of the game with passion and dedication.
Thank you to TaylorMade and Adidas for their incredible support.
To find Justin, his email is justin@elitegolfswing.com
To find Jesse, jesse@flaghuntersgolf.com
For more information on Hal’s golf Academy, go to www.halsuttongolf.com. Hal also has an amazing podcast called https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/be-the-right-club-today-podcast/id1548173826?i=1000620982240
Golf enthusiasts, get ready to elevate your game! We've had the honor of hosting Hal Sutton, a master of the game of golf, whose insights cut as sharp as his swing. Throughout this episode, Hal, with an illustrious career taking on legends from Jack Nicklaus to Tiger Woods, opens up about the essence of becoming a true golf champion. He doesn't just recount victories and accolades; he delves into the importance of mental fortitude, the art of resilience, and the profound impact that a multi-sport background can have on a golfer's approach to the game.
With stories of iconic mentors like Jimmy Ballard and Byron Nelson, Hal takes us through the nuances of strategy and technique that can only come from decades of experience. His candid revelations on overcoming adversity, the pitfalls of modern golf's obsession with technology, and how feedback from the right equipment can dramatically enhance performance provide a comprehensive look into the sport's evolving landscape. His conviction shines through as he emphasizes authenticity and personal intuition over conforming to the mechanics popularized by coaching trends.
Wrapping up this masterclass, Hal reflects on the psychology behind golf, sharing how the distinction between a teacher and a coach can influence a player's success. His personal anecdotes about strategic thinking and planning, akin to those of golf greats like Nicklaus and Woods, underscore the timeless strategies that transcend the fairways. From Jim Furyk's unconventional swing to Hal's own golf course design philosophy, this episode is a testament to staying true to oneself, building a legacy, and embracing every aspect of the game with passion and dedication.
Thank you to TaylorMade and Adidas for their incredible support.
To find Justin, his email is justin@elitegolfswing.com
To find Jesse, jesse@flaghuntersgolf.com
For more information on Hal’s golf Academy, go to www.halsuttongolf.com. Hal also has an amazing podcast called https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/be-the-right-club-today-podcast/id1548173826?i=1000620982240
Hello and welcome to the flag hunters golf podcast. I am your host, jesse Perryman, along with my co-host, justin Tang. We welcome you to another great week and this week is very, very special, very special to me. One of my boyhood childhood heroes on the golf course we got him on major champion, a former writer Cup captain. His name is Hal Sutton, one of the great guys in the game, one of the great golf swings, one of my favorite golf swings of all time, is on this week and he is nothing short of spectacular, completely honest in his assessment of what's going on with today's game and he really goes in depth about sharing his struggles in the doldrums of his career and how he came back, how he got started, how he went through the valley and how he came back to famously beat Tiger with his great quote, which is be the right one today. That's the name of his podcast as well and hopefully everyone will go over there and check that out. It's fantastic and, in short, hal really goes in depth about his game, his struggles, the state of the game today and, just as I mentioned, and it's fantastic. I want to leave this intro short so that we get right into it, both Justin and I think Taylor made and Adidas, and be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast, and don't hesitate to reach out to us. I will have all of our links directly on the show notes, as well as to get a hold of how and perhaps go to the Hal Sutton Golf Academy in Houston, texas, if you want to check that out. It's fantastic. Hal's instruction is amazing. It's very simple and it's great, and when you hear this his words you're going to understand. I hope everybody had a great weekend and I hope that you're having a great week and cheers to all and thanks again for listening.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to this very special edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. My name is Jesse Perryman. I am your host, along with my co-host, who is in sunny, hot and steamy always Singapore. His name is Justin Tang. He is one of the lead instructors at the Tanimera Golf Club and our guest today is somebody who's a childhood hero of mine. I used to love watching him play on the weekends. I always marveled how he swung the club, how he transitioned the club, and he always swung in balance. Just a very dynamic golf swing. An incredible human being, a winner of the PGA, a former Ryder Cup captain and way too many accolades to throw up here at this point, but his name is Mr Hal Sutton.
Speaker 2:Thanks, guys, thanks for joining us today. Hal, I wanted to add to that list of accolades that Jesse talked about. Your career was so enduring that you actually beat two of the all-time greats in two different eras. In 1983, you beat the Golden Band when he was breathing down your neck at Riviera, to win your first major championship. And in 2000, you beat Tiger Woods at the TPC. So, for the benefit of our listeners who are on the youngest side of things, how did you get into golf?
Speaker 3:I got into golf, I was playing all the other sports and a friend of my dad's gave him a set of golf clubs to give me and he said you know, hal's a good athlete, I think you ought to get him to play golf because he can play forever. And I went out one weekend and played and I played 45 holes the first time I went out and I was 11 years old and I was in love with the game. It was a little nine hole, of course, nobody was out there and I just kept going around, I just kept enjoying it and it was a love affair at first sight and I kept playing other sports until I was 16 years old. But my true love was golf and I quit everything else at 16 and started devoting all my time to golf.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about being a multi-sport athlete before specializing in golf? It seems that a lot of juniors these days try to specialize a little bit too early. I would 100% agree with that.
Speaker 3:I think that there's so many things that you learn from playing team sports and you know golf is an individual sport. I think you're socially at a disadvantage by just playing individual golf and that's all you do. But you know, the world is really kind of focusing all their attention on one sport at a time and I feel like I learned a lot of things playing team sports that I actually needed to know playing golf.
Speaker 2:And I also think, for example, games like baseball, soccer. You learn a lot of hen eye coordination that you might not necessarily get from just playing golf on its own.
Speaker 3:Totally agree with that. So you know I can't. Every time I was teaching for a while I've kind of slowed that process down. But when I was working with kids I always tried to get them to play more sports. You know I tried to get them to. You know you can burn a kid out and I just felt like there was less burnout if they played a lot of different things for a while, especially when they're 13 and 14 years old. You know, by the time you get to 15 or 16, you probably got to sell it back and just play whatever you feel like you're really good at.
Speaker 2:And I also kind of think that playing other sports is an element of the mental game that's being trained. What I mean is this when you play soccer, you may take in a game 20 shots at goal, but only one goes in. So from another perspective, it means that you fail 19 times at getting the ball inside the goal. However, golf is so particular that every stroke counts. Do you think that sort of mindset, where you one dares to fail, helps in becoming an elite player in the later years?
Speaker 3:Do I fail. Say that one more time. Do I fail? So?
Speaker 2:being able to fail, being able to take a shot and knowing that it might not come off as planned. Do you think that sort of mindset will help juniors develop into elite players in the later years? A lot of juniors, I feel, are afraid to take shots because they don't want to fail, whereas other sports actually trains you to fail. You try a shot at goal. It doesn't go in. You keep trying and trying and trying.
Speaker 3:So let me see how many different ways I can agree with you right there. So my worst times in golf came when I tried to be perfect and when I finally realized that there's no such thing as perfect and I'm just going to be the best that I can be, and that includes failing the majority of the time and it became something that I had to accept. Failure is just not hitting the perfect shot. Sometimes there's a lot of shots that work that you know you didn't hit it like you wanted to.
Speaker 3:I can't tell you how many times that I didn't hit it right next to the hole but I was 25 feet and I made the butt or whatever you got to go play the next shot. You know, one of the things that I see that's wrong with a lot of kids right now is they won't success, so they'll go putt short putts all the time and then they don't have distance control with their putt because they don't practice enough long putts and they don't practice long putts because they don't go in the hole enough, so they don't get the feedback that they want. So I mean that's several different ways of me agreeing with what you just said.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And how often do you think juniors should practice their mental game? It seems that a lot of juniors their idea of practice is okay, let's go get me a shag bag of balls, 100 balls. Let's go to a range, let's hit 50 meter shots. And they hit 150 meter shots. 60% of them end up around the target. They feel great about themselves. But how many? How often do you think juniors should practice mental toughness, mental toughness drills, for example, playing really difficult shots.
Speaker 3:Well, excuse me, I've got it told right now, but to me you got to practice mental toughness every day, and there's no out when it comes to letting your brain off that day. Your brain's got to be present in order to be a good golfer. You know, one of the things that I would add to what you just said is when I was a young man, I learned how to play golf on the golf course. I didn't start hitting a lot of golf balls until I got into college. I played on the golf course every day and you know, today kids think they can learn how to play golf in a simulator, and what a crying shame that is, Because that's not even close to the real game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got flat lines, you've got the air conditioner, you've got nowhere. And then, when you get out to the actual field of play, you're lost because you're not practicing the way you're meant to play, Exactly. I tell people right, driving ranges are great for the owners of the land, the owners of the operation, but it ain't good for you.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know how it is in Singapore, but COVID changed golf over here. It made all the golf courses so busy it's unbelievable. So you know. The truth is it's hard to practice on the golf course because there's so many people on the golf course now. But you know, more kids need to play more often. That's all I got to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with you there. I mean, I always look at the range, the range or simulators. It's good for getting feedback, but it's a half lie. You know, when you go on the golf course, you're really learning the game. You're learning how to play the game. You're learning how to play it holistically. You're learning how to deal with disappointment out there, and this is the thing that I see.
Speaker 1:I want to chime in on this conversation, guys, as far as with kids, because I'm a member of a private club and there are some great juniors that play where I play some really good players and how many times I asked them, how many times are you going to show up out of 10 times and have your A game? How many times? I mean, if you're asking me, hardly ever. You're. You were one of the best in the world, one of the best to ever do it. So anybody who's listening to this right now I mean, just listen to what Hal said hardly ever. So what does that teach you? It teaches you resilience. It teaches you you better get good with your wedges. It's not all about speed training.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't tell you how many. I can't tell you how many. I would say only three or four shots a day came off my club exactly the way I intended them to. Oh yeah, I had to allow something less than that almost all the time and, hal, you are a major winner.
Speaker 2:I've seen so many juniors, so many of my members. They miss it one shot. They feel like the world's going to end.
Speaker 3:Well. So I tell you where I really learned that that wasn't the case when I had to make a living doing it. You know I lived and died with every other shot and missed the cut and everything else. Finally I realized, look, I'm going to have to learn to make something out of nothing, and I'm going to have to learn how to go overcome adversity instead of talk about it. And you know, if I wanted to play the tour, if I wanted to make a living doing it, I had to learn how to do that.
Speaker 3:And you know one of the things that's wrong right now I have five kids. You know we've coddled our kids long enough that things are pretty darn good for them, and they expect it to be that way on the golf course too. And you know golf is a really hard game. I played with the best players in the world. I've seen them all hit bad shots. I've seen Tiger hit some shots that no one would have been proud of, but yet he was the best player of all time, probably. I saw Jack Nicholas hit several duck hooks and you wouldn't say that, but I mean you wouldn't think that. But you know it happens even from the best players in the world and they don't put their clubs up and quit they overcome.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah. I think a lot of people are swayed by what they see every weekend on PGA Tour broadcast. All they see are the marking groups who are arguably at the top of the games that week, but what you don't see are the guys who missed the cut, who missed hit the shots, as you have said, and then have this false paradigm of, yeah, all these PGA Tour guys, they hit perfect shots all the time and I go tell it my members, if that were true, then these guys would be winning week in and week out. But obviously that's not the case.
Speaker 3:No, that's a great point. You're seeing on the telecast the guys that are playing the best golf that day. Basically, here's the other thing If somebody's not playing very good, they don't show as many shots of him. They show the guys that are playing well, and so we don't get a real cross-section of reality with what's going on out there. If you go to a golf tournament, you will see some of that, but watching it on a telecast is not the case.
Speaker 2:So, as I said before we started recording, I've got three memories of you when I started golf back in 1998. You played Ben Hogan, apex, irons Blades, your nickname Papai you had the biggest forearms on tour back then, I'm sure. And then you telling Chuck Cook you were the longest straight hitter and that you didn't want to change your swing to obtain a higher ballflip. I like to talk about these things all separately, beginning with instructions. Can you share with us about the influence of Jimmy Ballard on your career and then subsequently the late Jackie Bird and Lord Byron?
Speaker 3:All right, so when I went to college there was they were the guy that was my coach, floyd Hogan was a following Jimmy Ballard and he wanted to go see what Jimmy Ballard knew. So he took me to see Jimmy Ballard and I just happened to swing at it A lot of the things that Jimmy Ballard liked. He liked you to be up on top of the ball. He didn't like a lot of tilting to golf swing. The things I did, jimmy seemed to like I'm involved by right side in the game. Jimmy said that too long, it was too left sided and he said do you hit it with your? I mean, he even used to say he wish he had three right arms to hit it with. So I went to see Jimmy and you know you tend to hit it a little lower. All the guys that saw Jimmy Ballard hit a little bit lower. I was always a low ball hitter. I never hit it real high. And then you said something about Jackie Burke.
Speaker 3:When I was going to college, houston was trying to recruit me. So I came to Houston and Jimmy Jackie Burke was one of the first few people that I met and he was so honest with me and truthful and telling me you know what was important and what wasn't important, even to the point that he didn't care if he hurt my feelings with it. And I've always been a believer that if a guy can tell you the truth and he wasn't concerned with whether it hurts your feelings or not, that the guy had to care a lot about you or he couldn't do that. And consequently, jackie and I stayed close forever. I mean, we just we buried him two weeks ago. He was 100 years old and you know, as the closest person that I've ever had that's passed away in my life, and I wondered, you know how I would feel. And you know there was a sense of, you know, emptiness because I wasn't going to be able to talk to him anymore, but at the same time, I was real grateful for having had him in my life for all that time and you know all the things that he told me I'll never forget, you know. And and then, lastly, lord Byron, my dad did business with a guy named Mr Schiff in Dallas and when I won the US Amateur, mr Schiff told my dad he said I think you need to bring Hal over to Preston Tale trails and let him spend some time with Byron Nelson and I really enjoyed my time with Byron Nelson. I mean a complete gentleman, humble, you know.
Speaker 3:He told me several things about golf that have stuck with me forever, like one of the things was you know, when you really get scared and you've got to hit the perfect shot, get on top of the ball and try to drive it in the ground right in front of you.
Speaker 3:Well, let me tell you something that has worked for me, no telling how many times when I really needed to hit it straight. There's something about it that helps you control the club face and it's like everything gets to where it's supposed to get at the proper time when you do that and your arms seem to be in sequence with your turning body, which helps control the club face. And I mean, you know, I'll never forget I had a one shot lead at Riviera, where they're going to play this week over Jack Nicklaus, and I mean, if anybody's ever been to Riviera, the tee shot is up over a big ravine, basically. And I mean you got to get the ball up to do this. And here I am thinking okay, mr Nelson, you told me to get on top of the ball. Here I'm going to get on top of it. I sure hope it gets over that out there.
Speaker 2:And I mean I got up on top of it, I hit it dead straight right down the center of the fairway.
Speaker 3:So it worked every time for me and that's why I had no trouble telling Chuck Cook that I wanted to be who I was. I don't mind, I'll be a low ball hitter, I'll get up on top of. The straightest hitters I ever saw were a low ball hitter. All the guys that hit it really high. They hit it a long way. What they bring left and right into play sometimes.
Speaker 2:That's such a key lesson for the higher handicap players that might be listening to this. They often take their tool and they use the face of their tool and try to lift it in the ground. However, if you try to drive the ball into the ground, the sweet spot will meet the ball, there will be shaft, knee and the ball will deflect off the angle of the club's face and go up in the air.
Speaker 3:So when I first started putting some things on Twitter, I asked the question does anybody hit it deep in the face anymore? And I can't tell you how many people are tweeted back. What do you mean? So all the best players hit the ball in the fourth, fifth and sixth group, not in the first and second group, but in the world we live in today, with everybody trying to get it up in the air, they hit it low in the face. I mean, if you look at my clubs, whenever I was playing, the grooves were worn out deep in the face because I hit down on the ball which delivered the club to the. I mean delivered the ball to the center of the face and it was almost like I pinched the ball off of the ground. It's like I trapped it against the ground and then the ball came up.
Speaker 2:That's such a great thing. Nick Fowler used to say that he felt that there was a layer of sandpaper on his club face and that he was just trying to rip the cover off the ball kind of saying the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, hal, and I also want to point out something that you said just a moment ago about playing your game, and it seems today that the real seduction is perfection, that we have all of these different devices that measure pressures, and we've got Trackman, we've got Gears, we've got the Body Track, we've got a lot of different devices.
Speaker 1:While they're all good, you said something. Well, I wanted to stay true to myself. I said no to Chuck Cook, who's a great coach, great teacher, who knows the golf swing as well as anybody, and you said I'm going to stick with what I know. I'm going to stick with me, and I think that's such an important part because we go back to kids these days, or even some of the young tour players, where they're searching for those perfect numbers. It's almost like I compare it to Greg Maddox, I mean the great pitcher. He never threw the ball over 90 miles an hour and he won seven Syungs, and there's a lot to be said for that. You can maximize what you have, as long as you stay true to who you are.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I can tell you this I can't stand. I mean, we just built a new golf course and we were the guy that put up all the money to do it. Asked me if I wanted to build an academy there and I said, heck, no, I don't want to build an academy because when I first started teaching, we had all those things you just mentioned and there would be a kid come out for a lesson and he'd hit a driver and the ball would be in the air and he's immediately looking around to see what the dad said. And I'm screaming at him watch the ball till it hits the ground. The ball's telling you the same thing, but you've got nothing to relate this data to without watching what that ball does. And I mean kids are so locked in to data right now.
Speaker 3:And let me tell you, whenever I lost my card, I mean I had to use the top 25 money earners to go back out and play the next year and was a comeback player of the year. The year I used that, but I had, I mean, when I finished Las Vegas that year, that I did that. I'm sitting in the parking lot with my dad and my dad said so what are you going to do? And I said well, I'm going to use the one time exemption. He said do you think you ought to go back to the tour school and not use that unless you have to? And I said no way. I said because if I'm not supposed to play next year, then I'm done, and if I can't get it back with this, then I'm done. And he said well, how are you going to do that? And I said I'm going to go back to being me.
Speaker 3:I said right now, I've been trying to please everybody else. Everybody else tells me you need to do this or you need to do that. And I said I'm so lost in all of everybody else's ideas that I don't even know who I am anymore. That's really key, what I just said right there. And so all of a sudden I go back and here's the way I did it. I said I'm gonna start controlling the club face. I gotta know where the club faces at. That's all I thought about. And before too long, it's same shot all the time. But see, I had to do that my way. I couldn't do it everybody else's way. So why did I do that? So that I could stand on the first tee and trust it. See, I can't trust what you give me. I can trust what I know is right. That's what I can take to battle.
Speaker 2:Well, that's, that's a lot of stuff to unpack that you. You mentioned the word authenticity. I think a lot of players are not authentic these days. They're not doing what the DNA says they should do. They're doing what someone else is that they should do. So brings to mind NBA player Rick Berry. I'm not sure whether you guys know this name. He was the only dude that, through free throws, underhanded yeah, that's right, it's free throw percentage was what?
Speaker 2:90%, 89, 89.3%, seventh, all time. So he didn't care, yeah, he. So he was ridiculed for for doing that, but I don't think he's seen care because he was helping them. So I think it's it's really important to be able to swing the way your anatomy says you should swing instead of Stringing what's popular at that point in time. And you also said what Lord Byron told you how to apply the face to the ball. I can't recall in recent times of any teaching Professional encouraging that. Instead, most of them would be focused on shaft playing, body movement, ground reaction forces. Note that those things are not important, but the point is this if you can't apply the face to the ball, nothing's gonna happen.
Speaker 3:Well, the game has changed a lot. You know we attack the ground. I don't see anybody attacking the ground anymore and the ball has changed. You know we had a lot of spin on the ball. You know they they develop balls that have no spin on them. You know we used to have one to two degree attack angle down, even with a driver. Now everybody's. You know the attack angle is on the upswing. Basically, you know, Minute ago you said you, you know, applaud the evolution of the game and you know I, the game has changed. I'm not sure I could play in the game that they play today. You know I Was on the board of the tour for six years and I really enjoyed the tournaments that asked you to be Hit it straight.
Speaker 3:There's no such thing as having to hit it straight anymore. You can hit it all over the lot, once you don't hit it out of bounds or in the water and still play. Those are hitting this so far and they got wedges into the green and you know they're shooting in the 50s now all the time, because things aren't that hard, I mean yeah, shot of 57 last year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean it's ridiculous what's going on right now? Yeah, he's like I don't know. I Should keep my mouth shut on this.
Speaker 1:Well, I find I, you know, I agree with you. Hell, I mean it's. I look at the driver today, like the modern driver is asking you to hit up on it, the ball is asking you to hit up on it to optimize the launch. And that's not how I grew up playing. I mean I'm I'm 53. I grew up with, I mean, my first, my first Metalwood was in 1992, an old-school tailor made that wasn't really going further than the persimmon that we were playing back in the day, but it seemed to be a little bit more biomechanically Efficient or at least there was less wear and tear. And now you got these guys out here that are getting hurt regularly because they're swinging at it at 120 plus. And you know, I mean I know that they're, they're going to the gym and everything, but Somewhere, somehow, some way, the body's gonna give and unfortunately it's taken away from exactly what you said the skill aspect.
Speaker 1:I mean you, you guys, you guys had to drive it straight, the roughest punitive. The ball didn't go as far. We're playing ballada, persimmon, with what. I'm sure you had a next 100 dynamic gold shaft in your driver. There wasn't a lot of forgiveness there. So the the equipment. Back then it told you that you had to make a move to hit it correctly. Now the club face is one big, giant sweet spot and the you know what do we? What are we pointing these days for 420 cc heads, okay, 460. I mean, goodness gracious, I mean, and it's a.
Speaker 2:Stringing your your mailbox on the end of the pool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you know no wonder these guys are swinging at it and how they're swinging at it, because there's not really any consequences. I mean, if you, if you, if you hit a shot on the heel with a ballada, ballada, persimmon head, you're gonna lose what? 40 yards and the ball's gonna go sideways. You know not, not so much. So I mean a boy. I would like to see in a, in a perfect world, some of that skill being reintroduced back into the game at the highest levels.
Speaker 3:So the last. Greg Norman and I were the last two guys to switch from a wooden club to a metalwood and it was in 1986 and 7. And the last wooden club that I played was a McGregor, the jack wallcott he made for me and and beautiful club one in 1986 at memorial with it. It was beautiful club. So he was just sitting in the bag and I had a guy working for me that was six foot six are working with me, not for me and he hit it. You know 350 yards, swung in 127, 28 miles an hour, and you know. So.
Speaker 3:One day I went in and I said hit this driver for me. He hit it 280 yards. It was heavy, it was small, the first one. He hit right off the toe and it went straight right. He couldn't even hit the face with it. So I said if you had grown up with this, you couldn't swing as hard as you swing because you couldn't hit center of the face with. You would have had to Throttle back so that you could hit center of the face. You know everybody said well, y'all didn't swing that hard. We couldn't swing that hard, not because we physically couldn't swing that hard, we couldn't play the game with the equipment that we had swinging it at that hard. So Game has changed yeah talking about.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, justin. No, no, go ahead, justin. So how you talked about physical ability, what are physical attributes that are necessary to succeed on tour?
Speaker 3:Well, you mentioned hand-eye coordination. You know, I think I think your eyes have a great deal to do with how you play. I really do, and it's your Minds eye, which we haven't even talked about here is probably the most important one. That's how your brain sees things, but that's delivered through your eyes and you know. So I see something out there that I'm wanting to hit it at and I look back down at the ball, but my mind's eye can still see what I was looking at while I'm looking at the ball, and I think that's one of the most important things.
Speaker 3:You know what I see now, because everybody's trying to hit it so hard. I see a lot of overuse of legs and you know I spend a lot of time trying to quieten the legs down and you know I just want everything to work in in the correct sequence. I want them to work as fast as they can, but in the correct sequence, and I see a lot of legs ahead of everything else sometimes, because you know they say two things the ground, the swing comes from the ground up.
Speaker 3:I hear that all the time and I still don't know if I buy that or not. I think the swing comes from the center of your body, basically, but you know, I think everything needs to match up in sequence, correctly, yeah and that's hard to do.
Speaker 1:It's hard to do with a modern driver. It really is. Yes, it is. It's hard to do.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, the manufacturers have sold distance as a sex object. I mean, to be honest with you, they've actually conned everybody into believing that distance is the most important thing, and Although I think in today's world distance is important, but you can't at all cost seek all the distance you can get, and I mean you can't think about doing it, you know.
Speaker 2:That's a true right, because if distance will be all and all of Honoman golf, all the long drives guys will be winning on the PGA Tour, and that's just not the case. I know Jamie Siedlowski tried the tour a couple years back but he didn't make much of his talent on tour. So goes to show you distance is great but it's not the determining factor for winning tournaments.
Speaker 3:Quick story that everybody will find amusing. I'm playing with John Daly and Hubert Green and Val Hollis, the PGA. They always paired defending champions together. So the fourth hole of Val Hollis, a Relatively short par fours, got water to the left, kind of a creep, not really a lake or anything, but it's a hole that I had to lay up on and you know I'd hit a one-iron back in the day.
Speaker 3:We hit one irons a lot. Nobody has a one-iron anymore. But anyway, john Daly pulls out an iron and the crowd goes that he's, you know, booting, basically because he wasn't gonna hit his driver. So he had to wait and he sat there for a few minutes and finally he goes over and pulls his driver out and everybody just cheers because John Daly, the big John Daly's gonna hit his driver. So I let the crowd calm down and I eased over next to him and I said so who's the CEO of your game? You are them. So the point is you know he was gonna play to whatever they wanted and play into what he has strengths. Where he made he it's a left in the water makes double boats. You know he was conned into that because of them. Oh, and that's a good story right there, because it kind of symbolizes what we've been talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing, 100%. Yeah, so you talked about one iron. You played the Ben Hogan apexes. What are your thoughts about modern day irons and can you just give us a glimpse of what you prefer back in the day?
Speaker 3:Well, I was always under the pretense that I needed to hit the clubs that allowed me to hit it closest to the hole. I didn't care whether I was. I hit the longest five iron that you could hit. You know, I wanted something that I could hit close to the hole and I could feel it. So I felt like the Hogan apex irons I could feel a miss. I felt when I hit it in the sweet spot it felt great. But if I didn't quite hit it in the sweet spot, I got that feedback too. See, in the modern day game these kids are not getting the feedback of that one quite right because the sweet spot is so big. So, you know, I believed in playing clubs that gave me feedback every time I swung at them. And you know, and it wasn't always we touched on this earlier it wasn't always perfect feedback. You know I didn't hit it perfect all the time, but if I hit it somewhere else on the face I needed to feel what I did hit it.
Speaker 2:Yep, and what was it that you're preferred chance when you're out on tour Most?
Speaker 3:of the time I drew my irons and faded my driver.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I meant shafts.
Speaker 3:Oh shafts, what a shaft oh okay.
Speaker 3:Well, I went through several shafts. I always had a heavier shaft because I could feel the club a lot better. Every time I went light I couldn't feel the head as much, so I could swing it faster, which is the goal. That's why everybody wants to play a lighter shaft now, because they can swing it faster. That was never my goal. So, you know, I had X100s a lot I had. You know, towards the end of my career I was playing with S400s. So I changed shafts a lot depending on what. They were always heavy. You know, I was looking for something that was better. Didn't really find it. They were all pretty similar, all the time?
Speaker 2:And what about your wedges? What's your set makeup, like I had.
Speaker 3:S300s in most of them, all the time a weaker shaft Looking for feel. Really, that's what I was looking for. You know, I look back at my career. If I'd have been a better wedge player, I could have won more. And when I say wedge player, full wedge, you know anything, 85 yards or more, I was pretty good with it. But you know, when it got down into 40, 50, 60 yards, I wasn't as good as I should have been, you know. And I never was a real good pitcher of the ball. You know I stupid me. I was always felt like it. You know I was known for hitting a lot of greens. I felt like it was a weakness if you had to chip. Of course, I tell every kid today I was stupid to think that because you got to make, you got to figure out a way to get the ball up and down. When you do miss, you don't hit all the greens.
Speaker 2:So anyway, were you influenced by Jack Nicklaus? It's sitting thinking that you get someone asked Jack Nicklaus, hey, don't you work on your chipping and pitching. He's like why do I need to? I hardly miss greens.
Speaker 3:Well, you know I told you early on he was my idol. I'm not sure I ever heard him say that, but it sure looked like that. You know I mentioned to you earlier that Tiger was the only guy that ever saw that did not fear where the ball went because he knew he had the next shot. So Jack Nicklaus was the opposite of that. I'm not saying he feared the shot. He knew where his strengths were and he played into his strengths and away from his weaknesses, which is smart.
Speaker 3:And what I tell all the kids all the time you know, don't take all your time to try to make your weakness stronger, because if you do, you're going to want to sacrifice your strength and your strength is why you're there to begin with. So you can't sacrifice some of your strength in order to get better at your weakness, because that may not get you there. And you know I see too many people working on their weakness all the time. And you know, although we have to improve our weakness, you can't. So here's what I tell all the kids if you spend five hours a day practicing and you want to spend more time on your weakness, that means you spend six hours a day practicing. It doesn't mean you take another hour away from that five hours to spend on your weakness.
Speaker 2:That's that's. That's cold right there. Not many people will give that kind of advice, but it's really taking a helicopter view of one swing, looking at changes from a risk reward perspective. So, with that in mind, can you share a little bit with our listeners about the difference between a teacher and a coach?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, in my mind, a coach is trying to get you better at more than just the golf swing and a teacher is trying to help your golf swing, and you may need both.
Speaker 3:I would say most people would benefit more from a coach than they would from a teacher. And you know, you know, one of the things that I do I used to do with the kids is I'd take them out and I'd monitor their pre-shot routine, which has nothing to do with their golf swing. It has a lot to do with setting you up to do your best, and the more consistently you can do that, the better your better player you're going to be in the long run. That's something that a coach would look at, and you know. And a coach is also going to watch you play enough that he's going to see where your fears are. And a teacher is not looking for your fears. He's looking for how to improve your golf swing, and you know you can't see what you fear most of the time in the simulator, so you can sure see somebody's fears on a golf course. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Definitely so, Carlos.
Speaker 1:Okay, al, me there I'll go. Justin Hal, you know, since we're on the subject, you know, going back to the eight years where you were struggling and you were working on your swing and you were trying to play perfect golf while having a perfect golf swing and when you came out of it you decided I'm going to be me, I'm going to be myself. You know what were some of the other lessons that you learned during those, during the doldrums of your career there, that really helped you to come out of that and apply that moving forward.
Speaker 3:Well, I quit looking for that guy that I thought had the Holy Grail to the game and I started looking within and, you know, I went back to the guy that I I'm. I'm Floyd Horgan, who I had worked with in college, who probably knew my game more than anybody else, and I, you know, I tell kids all the time, right now, if here's who I want to work with, somebody that's thinking about me when I'm not there, you know, if I'm there, they know I'm fixing to pay them If I'm not there they know I'm not fixing to pay them.
Speaker 3:So if they're thinking about me enough that they'll call me and tell me how I've been thinking about this, and this is something maybe you need to think about. I like that. I think that means they care about me more than just the money that I'm fixing to pay them. And you know, I always I was a big believer I paid everybody whenever I was playing. I didn't want anybody to say I expected anything for free. And you know, because if I wanted to go.
Speaker 3:I wanted to go and if I didn't want to go, I didn't know on anything, because I'd pay them when I left. And wow, you know I'd do some things differently if I had it to do over again. But the biggest thing I'd do differently would be I'd stick with the guy that loved me and, you know, didn't see me just as a paycheck or a name that would get him a paycheck. That's out there big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems on tour, there's no lack of information, free information and willing parties that will offer that information. It's so easy to get enticed, isn't it? In an attempt to get better or after a poor run of form?
Speaker 3:Well, you mentioned when I was in my doldrums. That's when you're the weakest and the most vulnerable. Because you weren't out of that and everybody knows you weren't out of that and everybody's got an answer, or they think they have an answer. Are they willing to give it a shot, if you're willing to listen to them, and the next thing you know is you don't even know who you are anymore. And boy did I suffer from that. You know.
Speaker 2:Well, you made a comeback in 1995 with a win at the BC Open, Then 1998, you won the Valero and the Tour Championship to finish this on the money list and complete your comeback. So obviously, whatever you did worked.
Speaker 3:Well, I just started controlling the club face and became me. I wasn't trying to be anybody else and you know, I accepted the fact that I hit it a little bit lower than everybody else and that was okay. I didn't. You know, that was kind of. There was a beginning of the transition of guys starting to hit it longer right in there. And here comes Tiger Woods. He's on the scene now and he's knocking the cover off the ball and you know everybody's trying to hit it further and I just had to be who I was.
Speaker 3:You know and you know the early Hal Sutton, the guy that you know, in the early 80s. I was subject to a lot lower score then because I didn't play risk reward as much. I stepped on the gas and stayed on the gas. That's why I shot a lot lower scores. The guy Hal Sutton in the late 90s and early 2000s was much more calculated.
Speaker 3:I played in the must crates away from my weaknesses, and I wasn't trying to set a course record every day. The truth is, I finally figured out that it didn't matter what I shot, as long as I had a winning score. You know, so many guys go out to play and if it's bad weather or anything else. You know they're defeated before they start because they don't think they can shoot a good score. It's bad weather or whatever else. You know score is meaningless. I mean, you're all playing in a golf tournament. You're trying to win the tournament, not that's. I mean the winning tournament. The winning score will be the lowest score, but it doesn't have to break the course record. So I finally realized, you know, realize where you're at and what the conditions are, and play to that you know.
Speaker 2:You know earlier in the conversation you mentioned about being a thin pick. I like to talk about the Elephant and the Roo. He beat Tiger on the 17th anniversary of your first tour championship win in 2000, when he was arguably at the peak of his powers. Your Freddy, your caddy Freddy Burns, said you were not scared. So there's a lot of stuff being talked about. That's six iron from 184 yards, but I don't think there's enough talked about the mindset, like what you said about when you're authentic, you're not going to fear. Can you walk us through the mindset of them on the last tour, or actually on hole 16, where you built a three shot cushion? Can we talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:Well, so you know, on Sunday I had to reach out and lead and Tiger was against the ropes. Really he was not playing very well. The golf course was playing fast, which was more into my game and less into his game. His power was kind of meaningless because, you know, pete died golf course you can't really stretch out. Pete died, build some from point A to point B. That's the way you play that golf course and that's kind of the way I play. Golf was point A to point B to point C and you know Tiger would try to skip point B. He'd go from point A to point C. Basically, you know, just because of his power and anyway the range came, they called the tournament.
Speaker 3:We go back out and rain three inches at night and we go back out to play the next day and now the advantage is tighter because there's three inches of rain. Now you know I'm not going to have a lot of role. I didn't need it. But you know what it did was I might not go for the green on 16 and Tiger is going to go for the green. I made the statement to Freddie when I got there. I said we've got to get to 16 with a three shot lead. If we get to 16 with a three shot lead, then he can make a goal and I can make par, which might happen and I still go into 17 and 18 with a one shot lead and he's got to play 17 and 18 just like I do. So you know, that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 3:He made a goal and I made par and you know the crowd went nuts because they're thinking here he comes, here comes Tiger one more time. Well, I was already prepared for that. My mindset said that's okay if that happens, because I still got the lead. So we go to 17 and Tigers got the team because he made eagle and I mean he hit the worst shot you've ever seen in your life and barely cleared the water. It was six inches rough over the violence and it went in rough. I mean he was six inches away from being in the water. So I hit in the middle of the green and we're walking up there and I had a joke and, tiger, I really appreciate you clearing the water. You're the first guy that cleared the water in front of me this week.
Speaker 3:Everybody else handed in water and I had to watch that. He didn't appreciate that. But anyway, like you know, he didn't hit a very good chip. Nine or 10 feet short breaking, six inches left to right hardest button in the world and he just pours it right in the center of the hole. You know, I mean he was as good as there was at doing whatever he had to do, and so I ended up. You know, I too put it from about 25 feet and when I had it there was no way to stop it close to the hole. It went about three feet by the hole. I made the puck coming back and when I, freddie, put the pin in the hole, he said okay, you're the best driver in the game.
Speaker 3:You got to hit driver on the next hole, hit driver on the next hole and I played three one off the tee all week long because that was the smartest play it took. It took all the trouble out of play but now I've got a one shot lead. It's a 70 second hole and I need to have the last shot into the green and I knew Tiger was going to hit his two iron stinger and the only club I had in my bag that I could out hit him on was the driver, so that's why we needed to hit the driver so that I had the last shot in.
Speaker 3:So you know, tiger stuck it down there about 270 and I had hit driver. He had it past him and I was fortunate to do it.
Speaker 2:Bunzey was pivotal in you choosing the driver on the last hole. He said this to you who's the best driver in the world? And you said I am. And he replied damn right, you are.
Speaker 1:Boy, is that powerful, I mean well.
Speaker 3:I think I mentioned trust earlier. Yes, trust is a. That's the 15th club in the back and you know you've got to trust what you're about to do. If you don't trust it, you're not going to do it. And you know I trusted that I could drive it in a fair way. I knew I could.
Speaker 3:And I missed one green that day and that was number eight. Peter was back left and I was trying to scream it past the bunker. As you know, it was the greatest shot I hit my life. Actually, it was out of the bunker that day because I couldn't stand in the bunker.
Speaker 3:The ball was, you know, way below my feet and Tiger walked over and looked at the shot and I could see him walk back over to Stevie. He said Stevie Williams and you know he's shaking his head like no way he can't get it close here. And I hit the shot of my life. I mean softly jumped up about and run about eight feet by the hole, but it was. Nobody in the world could have gotten any closer unless it hit the pin. And you know, tiger, I hold the pot. We're walking to the ninth tee and Tiger looked over and he said that was one hell of a shot right there and that was what let him know I wasn't going to go away and at that time, you know, tiger wasn't getting beat by anybody at that time and somebody needed to beat him and it was my turn, so I was taking my best shot at it.
Speaker 2:You mentioned trust as the 15th bag, but you also were extremely prepared. Mike Tyson used to say this right, everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face. So you actually built a three shot cushion into 16 because you were expecting Tiger to eagle it. That's not something that a lot of golfers do these days, strategic planning Certainly not something that a lot of junior golfers think about. So, with that in mind, can you share a little bit with us about the philosophy of the Hal Sutton Academy?
Speaker 3:Well, planning is really important in my opinion. You know we try to teach kids there at the academy to first of all come to grips with who they are, Be honest with the talents and lack thereof. What do we need to improve? What are we good at already? And we try to help them improve where they need it. But the most important thing is I talk about pre-shot and routine a lot. I talk about having a plan before each shot, before each round. Have a plan before each shot. Have a plan.
Speaker 3:And I mean it's too many of the times a kid is looking at the shot and he's like, got in mind what he's going to hit. I don't know if he's clearly established what he's really trying to do. I tried to never hear the shot that I think clearly established in my brain. This is what I'm trying to do and you know I mean haphazardly playing.
Speaker 3:A golf shot is going to produce a haphazard result. And you know, I'll tell you this, although Tiger was a great manager of his game, I don't think there was ever a better manager of his game than Jack Nicklaus and I don't think he ever hit a shot that he didn't have a plan for. Now he might not have executed that plan, but he had a plan prior to hitting the shot and you know we talked earlier that. You know failure is part of the game and there's something to be learned from that. And you can't expect to execute the plan every time you hit it, but you need to have a plan. You don't get in a car and start your car up with no plan about where you're going.
Speaker 2:Jack was really authentic. Just as you said, Play the field Most of his life. Never tried to draw it no, but he could draw it. So do you have any Jack?
Speaker 3:Nicklaus stories. Do I have any Jack Nicklaus stories? Yeah, I've got several Jack Nicklaus stories. You know this is back when we were tweets. You know spikes. I played several times with him where I was watching him analyze his putt and I'd watch him go to the other side of the hole and look at stuff on the other side of the hole. So we got three one day and I said so what were you doing out there today when you were looking to pass the hole? He said I was looking where everybody was missing their putt. He said you can see it was where there's spikes are. Pretty good advice. It doesn't work in today's world because nobody got spikes on anymore, but you know he was.
Speaker 3:He could tell that everybody was either overreading a pod or underreading a pod by where they were standing to hit the next putt from From whatever side of the hole he was on. You know, we were playing in New Orleans together one time and an English turn and he built the eighth green there. He built the whole golf course but the eighth green had a big elephant in the middle of the green. Wind always blew hard in English turn and so I hit this shot that day. That got up into the wind and the pin was on the right side of my ball, veered off to the left a little bit. It was on the green, probably 35 feet from the hole, but it was. I had to put up over this elephant so I had to put too hard and run over it back of the hole, jumped up about three inches and fell in the hole and he looked at me like you lucky son of a gun, you know. So we walked off the green. I said you know that look that you gave me after I made that putt. It looked like you expected me to say I'm sorry that I miss it, that putt, or that I hit it too hard or whatever else, but I'm not sorry about that I said you see that elephant, you put that green.
Speaker 3:You know he was a good sport. I really enjoyed playing with Jack. Whenever I played with him he I learned a lot from it and you know I get asked all the time which one of the two of them were the best player. You know it's a debatable thing. It's two different areas. I don't know how we compare it, but the only answer I can give you is Jack had a weakness that he played away from and I never really saw weakness that Tiger played away from. It looked like he didn't care. It was. You know, all oars in the water, full steam ahead. I can play from wherever we're going the next shot. So that's my answer back to that when people ask me that, oh, you beat both of them, that's right.
Speaker 1:You beat both of them and you know. Going back to what you said about Tiger and I was thinking about wherever the ball goes I could play from. I mean that that is a level of freedom I think that we should all aspire to.
Speaker 3:I really well what we should aspire to. Few people have ever been there. I'll tell you that, and you know I mean, to my recollection, only one that I've ever known. I was there and I've been to this name already. But if you can get to somewhere near that, I guarantee you we're going to know who you are. Your name will be in lights.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what I got out of this conversation was never lose sight of the fact that low scores wins the game. It's not the ball doesn't care what string you make on it, it only cares about getting in the hole in the least amount of shots. That's what it takes to win tournaments.
Speaker 1:Yep, and to play your best. And how you know, justin and I, always other than you, one of our favorite other guys that we love to talk about is Jim Fjordk, and Jim exemplifies this, these very phenomena, very well. I mean, at least from what we see, and you know, I think that there's a, there's a lesson here in this conversation, and there's a lesson for everybody who's listening to, I mean Jim, jim Fjordk, he doesn't really care what his golf swing looks like in his mind it's like Adam Scott's but he goes out and he plays this game and he just he's, he's authentic and true to himself and it's powerful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jim's a great friend, super guy. You know I've had him on our podcast a couple of times and you know he was two to three left. He's one, two to three degrees left and you know, was fine with that. That was who he was, that was his fingerprint and he lived. He was authentic to that. Y'all keep using the word authentic. He was authentic to that. You know, his dad was his teacher and they stayed true to that and he knew who he was, he knew he could trust that and when he got in a tight situation he believed in what he was doing. And you know, at the I don't know if he still is, but a couple of years ago he was third or fourth leading money winner of all time was $75 million. So you know he did all right with a swing that everybody didn't think was perfect by any means, but I'll tell you what it was. It was perfect for Jim Furick.
Speaker 2:Like Furick, should be inducted into the golf teachers hall of fame. He deserves it, but not messing around with that swing.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, if a whoever 13 year old kid came into your academy and he had Jim Furick swing, you might could change it. If a 16, 17 year old kid comes into your academy and he's got Jim Furick swing, might not be the best thing to change it, because he's pretty developed at that point. His mind is already on that track, and who's to say whether he could adjust his mind or not. Why take a chance with it?
Speaker 1:So yeah, absolutely. And in closing, to how you know what a thing it would be, justin and I talk about this all the time what a thing it would be to teach how to be resilient. You know how to be authentic to yourself, how to overcome adversity, how to accept situations for what they are. I mean, if you're, if you're Greg Maddox and you throw at 96, 97, 98 miles an hour and you're winning seven psi youngs and you're winning World Series, what the hell is wrong with that? You know. You know, I mean in a perfect world.
Speaker 1:I was a seeker, we've all been seekers, we've all tried to go down the path of swinging the golf club perfectly.
Speaker 1:But you know, at the end of the day, I think, as we usher the game into another era, being coaches and being people such as yourself, why not work on these, on these basic mental, emotional, psychological fundamentals as a foundation to one's golf, as a foundation of one's golf game, and really try to proliferate the enjoyment?
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what I've never been more satisfied playing a golf tournament than when I'm getting the ball up and down from everywhere. Yeah, it could be a little bit annoying at first, but if you're getting the ball up and up and down and you're not hitting it. Perfectly well, I'll tell you what if you're mentally in the right place, momentum's going to come on your side and you're going to start hitting them. And you know, we keep mentioning Tiger, but boy, how many times did Tiger do that? Oh, it's crazy. You know how many times we've all done that in our own unique games where we just figure it out. And you know, my last closing statement in this beautiful conversation is when are we going to get taught to get out of our own way?
Speaker 3:I don't know that's not sexy to teach that, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, when you figured it out, you did it, and look at what you did.
Speaker 3:No, I 100% agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with you by saying that you know, but I think you know people read about who the greatest teacher is at the time. That's why Floyd took me to see Jimmy Ballack, because he was teaching a hundred tour pros at the time and you know, floyd wanted to know what he had to say. So he took me because he was popular choice and there had to be a reason why he was a popular choice. Well, at the time I don't think he was the best thing in the world, for how sudden.
Speaker 3:You know, in 1980, when I was a senior in college, I was runner up in the NCAAs. I won the North South, I won the Northeast, I won the Western, I won the US Amateur and I won the World Amateur. I wasn't working with Jimmy Ballack, I was working with Florida, oregon, and you know I didn't need to go see Jimmy. So you know. But we believe there was something else out there that would make me even better. Isn't that a golfer? Isn't that why you buy new drivers? Isn't that why you go see a new teacher? Because you've never reached the pinnacle of who you can be? Word, wow.
Speaker 1:I think that's a, that's a mic drop right there.
Speaker 2:Yep. Hey Hal, in closing, can you talk a little bit about your golf course design business?
Speaker 3:You know I'm only designing a few because I take it to heart. I quit playing golf and I'm there every day that the dirt's being moved, so you know I don't want to make a mistake with it. So presently I've just finished one here and just outside Houston called Darmor Club. It's an incredible golf course. It's a golden age architecture golf course. I followed CB McDonald and Seth Reiner's Basically what they had done template holes. It's going to be incredible. We're going to open it probably May 1st. It's been the most fun I've ever had in my life building a golf course because I had a beautiful piece of property to do it on. It looked like British Open golf course more than anything else. It was in the, where they mined sand and gravel for 100 years ago. So there's a lot of big bounding on it that are pretty natural looking. There's been a lot of native grasses on it. There's no water on it at all, just like a lot of the British Open courses no water.
Speaker 2:So I'm excited about it Great, and where can our listeners find out more about you, your academy and your golf course business?
Speaker 3:Well, you know what house golf academy. You can find out some things there. You know I've never really publicized anything about the architecture that I do. I only do a couple of them. So no way to make any money doing what I do because I'm too into it. You know most of the architects. They show up five or one once every five or six weeks and I'm there every day. So you know I'm trying to build a legacy instead of I'm trying to do something that lives forever, in other words, in the golf course, not just make a dollar off of it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for hearing that. Thank you so much for your time once again, Hel. It's truly been a pleasure.
Speaker 3:Well, I've enjoyed this with y'all. Yeah, thank you, Hel.