Nurturing Future Golf Greats: Andreas Kali’s Vision for Junior Development and the Role of Mentorship

Embark on a journey through the green with Andreas Kali, the visionary head coach of the Danish Junior Golf Association, as we dissect the core elements shaping the next wave of European golf champions. Our candid chat with Andreas unveils his bespoke coaching philosophy that champions individuality, creating a nurturing hotbed for Dutch prodigies. We compare the supportive, community-driven European youth development to the more solitary American pursuit of golfing prowess, examining the potential lessons for stateside golfers and the infrastructure needed to foster their growth.

Navigating the fairways of coaching, I share the psychological twists and turns of personal swing adjustments, revealing the surprising role of technology in my understanding of the game. We dissect the essence of a solid coaching foundation, exploring the nuanced difference between coaching systems and methods, and the critical role they play in managing the sport's mental and technical demands. Mentorship and community emerge as vital threads in the coaching tapestry, as we recount the evolution from an apprentice to an established coach, drawing inspiration from those who guided us along the way.

No episode is complete without looking ahead. Join us as we gear up for a series of travel and networking opportunities where you can meet Andreas and engage with fellow golf enthusiasts. Whether it's Barcelona in March or the PGA Summit in Germany, these events highlight the importance of connection within the golfing fraternity. So, whether you're a coach, player, or simply a fan of the game, this episode is laden with insights, reflections, and a shared passion for golf that unites us all.
 To find Andreas, go to www.andreaskaligolf.com
 To  find Justin easiest, email him at justin@elitegolfswing.com or on Instagram @elitegolfswing
 To find Jesse, also email him at jesse@flaghuntersgolf.com or on Instagram @flaghuntersgolfpod.com


Thank you again to TaylorMade and Adidas for their incredible support..

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello, this is Jesse Perryman and, along with my co-host, justin Tang, we thank you to another edition of the Flag Hunters Girl podcast. This week on the pod We've got the head coach of the Dutch Junior Association. His name is Andreas Kalle. Well, I'll tell you what. All you got to do is go over to Andreas's Instagram and you can see clips that he puts up of his students and you look at these golf swings and you go, wow, all right, this guy is producing a potential juggernaut to come out of such a small country, especially in comparison with the United States. But it's a fun hour, great hour.

Speaker 1: 0:43

Andreas talks about his story and coaching kids to not only become great golfers but to become the best versions of themselves, and it's super cool. Andreas is heavily influenced by Andy and Mike Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett in the stack and tell. But what's interesting about this is that he doesn't teach everybody the same, so you don't see a uniform of the same pattern per kid when you go on to either his website or his Instagram, and I think that's really interesting. And one thing to note before we get into the main pod I wanted to bring up here it's interesting to me that Europe is kicking our ass in the rider cup, but when we look behind the veil of it, it doesn't surprise me, because these countries, particularly in the Netherlands and Sweden and the smaller countries up there they take care of their kids. The kids might pay a small fee at the beginning of the year and then the club that they belong to their members at and they take care of them. They pay for their instruction, they pay for their travel and their golf tournaments and it really is pretty cool because they all grow up competing against each other and it's like iron sharpens iron, I think it's.

Speaker 1: 2:10

There's a community that's being developed as well as the kids being pushed via competition to become the best versions of themselves on the golf course, and I think that in the United States we're lacking them, and I just wanted to throw that in there. I think that we need to really get back to, if we're going to create and develop talent in the United States, that this model that they have over in Europe might be extremely beneficial to us, and I don't think it would cost a whole heck of a lot of money. A couple of fundraisers and your kids are scored away for the year, and it doesn't surprise me that in Europe and internationally they're developing some great players and some superstars, and not that we don't hear in the US, but it's much more lonely the road, whereas in Europe you do have a community. I just wanted to throw that in there. I'm going to put everything in the show notes on how to get a hold of Andreas, myself and Justin, and then once again, I want to give a special thanks to TaylorMade and Adidas for their support and I hope everyone is having a great week. I hope everybody listens to Andreas. He's pretty economical with his words and he means what he says and said is what he means. So hopefully everybody will have a good week and cheers to all.

Speaker 1: 3:43

This is Jesse Perriman, welcoming you to another edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast, along with my co-host, justin Tang, who is at the Tan Amer Golf Club in Singapore, where it is always summer and I'm sure our guest in this episode, and I would like to be alongside Justin because I'm in cold, rainy California and Andreas is in Copenhagen, denmark, or just North Copenhagen. Andreas Kali, welcome my friend. Thanks for coming on, thanks guys.

Speaker 1: 4:12

Justin thanks. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 4:14

Hey, thanks Jesse, thanks Andreas. My friend Andreas needs no introduction to our listeners. He's the head coach of the Danish Junior Golf Academy, who is now a part of Golf Digest's best international teachers. He has helped more than 130 players get into the Danish national team since its beginning in 2007. The DJGA has produced numerous Solheim Cup winners and Olympic participants, european 12 winners, eisenhower trophy winner, european champions, multiple NCAA all Americans and national champions. Hello Andreas, how did you get here? That was quite a bit.

Speaker 3: 4:50

How did I get here? That was a lot. I want to correct you. We haven't had any DP World Tour winners yet. How did I get here? Well, I used to play the golf. I thought I was going to play the right of court myself. I watched Thomas Bjorn play Valderrama in 1997.

Speaker 3: 5:08

First thing, never playing it and I was like you know what I want to do? That that's what I want to do. So from then I was probably 14 years old, basically dropped everything I had and just wanted to see how good I could get at golf. For a long time I went the right direction. So I got into the boys national team, got into the Vince national team, got a scholarship to play college golf in the States, kept improving and actually thought I was on track for something because I was getting better every year.

Speaker 3: 5:37

And then all of a sudden it started going. I was about to say sideways, but it went downhill pretty quickly, got a lot worse, ended up, I don't know, doing like having the scoring average just below 70 my freshman year, college to from the middle of my sophomore year, basically after I signed a scholarship for at a D1 school I think I averaged just below 80. So about 10 strokes higher. Got pretty bad and all of a sudden like started meeting adversity for the first time. Met with whatever the smartest people that I thought they were did what I was told. Ended up getting worse. Met another guy who helped me out quite a fair bit so got the game back on track. Ended up turning professional just because I felt like I needed to at least try it out. Been all right, played for four years, didn't, didn't know anybody, any money, so I guess that's already a success right there.

Speaker 3: 6:36

And then after my fourth year, I found out I didn't. I wasn't progressing how I wanted to and honestly, didn't really like it that much anymore. Then, by accident, a good friend of mine who was a head pro needed an apprentice, asked me if I wanted to be that and I was like you know what, I don't know what else to do. That is, I guess 14 years ago now. And then started to actually for the first time like getting interested, like really getting interested in how golf works. Before that I just wanted to compete. I was never a very good bull striker, so got really interested in like how the swing would work. Got into you remember this, justin got it like stumbled upon the Gotham golf block like me back in the day, when it was still running.

Speaker 3: 7:23

And there was this big golfing machine page that I really liked because there was some sort of answers there. It wasn't non-answers. There was at least some sort of explanation of what was going on and what was important and what was maybe not important. So did the golfing machine for well? Studied that for a long time. If you study the golfing machine long enough, you stumble upon something with McGregor Grady or some tapes because you want to learn more. Did that then? Actually? I think it was in 2012,. Maybe Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer came to the Danish PGA Summit 2% and then they did an extra day of network training for Stack and SILV Attended. That saw some of the best golf lessons I'd ever seen in my entire life, so got infatuated with that how fast they could improve players, how fast they can get players to hit the ball better, and just thought it was incredible.

Speaker 3: 8:16

So went down that journey got hired in. Is that now, 12 years ago, to run the Danish Junior Golf Academy and been doing that ever since. Got forts and just stumbled upon some young guys when they were between the age of what, 11 and 14 years old. Did my very best with them, tried to help them out with everything I could. They would ask me a bunch of questions that I didn't know the answer to, so I had to find out, found out that there was a lot of people out in the world who were really, really helpful and I didn't know how good these players were. But turns out that they were good enough to be.

Speaker 3: 8:54

At least two of them is on DP World Tour now. One of them who I helped out for a long time is the only Danish one on the LPGA Tour. Some of them are still like they're ended up at big schools in the States. So, like Oklahoma State, Texas, Florida, Colorado, Arkansas, TCU, many more places I didn't get, I didn't know they were going to get that good because I didn't really know. I knew they were good, I just didn't know how good they were compared to everybody else. It turns out that they've been doing pretty been doing all right.

Speaker 2: 9:27

Do you teach the whole garden boys or did you teach the whole garden twins?

Speaker 3: 9:32

No, no, they're from the West Coast. They have been. Oh shit. I've been looking at those boys since they were like 12 years old when I go out to tournaments, and it was rare that any of my guys would beat that. It happened every now and then but they were freaking amazing ever since they were young.

Speaker 2: 9:49

So you mentioned the early 2000s, mid 2000s. Those were golden moments, golden days. Man of golf instruction, I feel you know Ralph Perez. I still keep in touch with him, gotham golf club. I think he was a pivotal part of that movement. Javier and I got same thing. Yeah, yeah, I know Javier. Yeah, those are really great times. No, you know, when you said you, your stroke average went from sub 70 to 80. What happened there?

Speaker 3: 10:20

Well, I got into the men's national team because I did really really well in college and the coach, who was the guy working with me, was like all right, if you want to take the next step. We got to make a couple of adjustments and I hit a pretty big draw. So you know what? He was probably right that you know what that thing probably had to get like at least tightened up. But I think we're at a time where the back, the ball flight loss were backwards and all these different things. I felt like I was a good student so I'd pay attention that the ball would start on the path and curve away from the and curve, curve to where the face was pointing. And we practice some things where I guess we would open up my club phase a little bit to the path, or at least open up more to the path than it was, and we'd move the path a little bit more to the left. And you know what for a while actually was straightening that thing out. The problem was when that ball started started right and cutting. My answer to that solution was that the ball was starting right, so I had to swing the club more to the left, right and I actually never figured that out until I stopped playing, until we did the trackman stuff. But I would, I could still play some golf. So I would. I mean, as long as I didn't hit the ball that started right and cut. I'd probably shoot in the sixties, but if that shot happened on number two of a tournament round, for sure wouldn't break 80. Because my solution for that shot was swinging more to the left, which was just adding more right curve, and I think at the end of it I still.

Speaker 3: 11:51

I'll forget this, I'll never forget this. I played Virginia Country Club the Long Beach tournament and I'm paired with Davy Vanderwald and Gary Woodland who hit it freaking far Like I wasn't really I was. I was never long, like I was kind of on the short end of average I guess. But when you've got what I would, if I look back on it, I'd probably have a face to path that was like 12 degrees open. I'll never forget it. Standing on the ninth I think it was ninth like in part five, I'm standing in the ninth fairway and I'm over a hundred yards behind these two guys off the tee going like I'm not sure, like how the hell I was supposed to compete with this.

Speaker 2: 12:30

I'm not sure how good your short game was back then, but I don't think any short game would be good enough to overcome a hundred yard difference. No, no, no.

Speaker 3: 12:40

And mine was and mine was freaking good Like that was my, like I could chip and putt and I got for sure that those two years where I just kept getting worse, my chipping and putting kept getting better, like it was all I had to. But I still like hell. I'll still like to this day if I go play a course and I've got wind off the left and OB down the right like I still get the twitches just because I've been standing on some of those tee boxes for forever, just hitting one ball after the next.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Yeah, and I think over a period of time the brain just can't handle that kind of pressure where you're literally giving up a hundred yards to everyone.

Speaker 3: 13:17

Yeah, well, I mean I got it back right. So I've got a new coach and he explained, like, how this would work out and like he didn't explain it like through the ball flight loss, but at least I got some sort of control. But if somebody just had told me, like that ball that starts right and cuts, it's because the face is open to the path, it's not because your path is too far to the right, that would have. I mean, I know now, like I played, how I play almost just as good now and I don't play golf anymore as I did when I played professional, just because I know more and I understand more.

Speaker 2: 13:48

So here's the irony it took another Dane, Frederick Tuxson, to shed light on the actual ball flight loss that's the irony.

Speaker 3: 13:56

Yeah, and you know what I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're 15 minutes from me. I was way back in the day when I was in Amateur golfer, before I went to the States, we had actually hit on like the very very first track man which was this like silver, like huge looking case it wasn't orange or anything, it was silver and green where it only measured the golf ball Like they were testing it and they wanted some guys to test it. They came out to our club to do it. So yes, frederick, is it's what he's done for golf instruction, for golfers? Is it's? It's it moved golf instruction quite a fair bit in the right direction.

Speaker 2: 14:36

I should put him in the hall of fame, yeah for sure. You know, something you mentioned quite which was very interesting to me was this you said your short game kept getting better as your long game deteriorated. And that's the genius of the human, the human mind, how adaptive it can be and how it seeks solutions to problems. And going back to your deterioration, making swing changes are very similar to making changes in a computer code. It takes time. Unfortunately, when you finally realize that there's a problem, it becomes a challenge to untangle the problem unless you have a system. So what's your coaching process? And then I like to segue into systematic coaching and what coaches misunderstand about having a system. And last one is what's the difference between a system and a method? Yeah, where do you want to start? What's your coaching process?

Speaker 3: 15:40

I think. Well, my coaching process is biased, there's no doubt about this, and it is biased towards my own experiences as well. It's also biased towards the people I've learned from. My process is, first of all, it's just defining what defines a good golf swing and what is a good golf swing supposed to do. And I would say a good golf swing is well, first of all, it can't cause harm to the person swinging the club. But then, on top of that, what does it have to do? Well, by definition, it has to produce consistent face contact, and the consistent place on the face doesn't have to be the center. I think we've seen plenty of good players who hit it slightly towards the heel just to remove a little bit of drop, or the other way around, hit it slightly towards the toe to remove a little bit of fade, but in an consistent spot. It has to produce a consistent horizontal and vertical low point so it can hit the ground in a consistent spot with whatever amount of depth. That I want to do, or I can not hit the ground behind the golf ball with the proper amount of depth.

Speaker 3: 16:48

I think that's what a good golf swing does. Then, on top of that, it produces some sort of functional club speed and ball speed and launch and spin, depending on like you can. Again, you can take this little puzzle piece and add it up, depending on if the player swings it. If it's a girl who swings the driver 90 miles per hour versus one of my guys who swings the driver 137 miles per hour, it's different Like what's functional launch, spin, different like what they need. Then, on top of that, then it creates a consistent starting direction and a fairly consistent curvature and if the, if somebody does that, they by definition have a good golf swing in my opinion. So you would say, if you look at it that way, scottie Sheffler has the best golf swing in the world right now. Oh, but his looks are all over the place.

Speaker 3: 17:34

Yeah, yeah, I agree and I agree. But if I look at it backwards and I went movement first and not how a club hits a ball second, then I would not say he has the best golf swing. Then I would likely say that Adam Scott has the best golf swing which is really a golf swing I really like.

Speaker 3: 17:52

Right, but it's not. I mean I would do the hell, would take Scottie Sheffler. Unless it's an ego thing or it's like a vanity thing, everybody in their right mind would take Scottie Sheffler's golf game over Aaron Scott's least they're all.

Speaker 2: 18:09

Yeah, you need to unpack that for all listeners. A lot of guys go about it the other way. And I know it's going to be beautiful, movement, movement base assessment, various. What you're saying is it's going to be functional. Let's look at the function first, then we move backwards. But I think a lot of guys look at it the other way around.

Speaker 3: 18:28

They might not the people that I hang out with, so I don't. I don't really know what everybody else does, At least unless it's people that I enjoy hanging out with and I enjoy talking to right, but I think it also as a golf coach, at least for me. I think it gives me those are the spots I'm looking at it also gives me a lot of clues on where to look. Okay, the curvature is off. Why is the curvature off? Either there's something wrong with the path, or there's something wrong with the face, or there's whatever there is there was wrong, or there's something wrong with the launch, which means that might be something wrong with the angle of attack, or there might be something wrong with the dynamic loft. But then at least I know where to look and I think that's basically how I look at it and that would be like the general idea. Person shows up. I think the worst the player is, or the newer the player is a golf, the easier that part is, Because it's, I mean, you can't really do anything else if you don't have strike distance direction. It doesn't really matter how good you are at reading a lie or knowing where to land your golf ball or how far your clubs go, because they don't really go the same distance every time, because you're hitting the ground all over the place or the faces pointing to the right on one ball and then this pointing left on the next ball, and all these different things. But so I think that part is fairly easy. I would then say again it doesn't really matter if it's long game, short game, putting. You look for where the ball ends up, like how do I create the smallest dispersion, whether it's off the tee, whether it's approach game, whether it's short game, whether it's putting, how do I create the shortest, the smallest dispersion? And then how do I, where do I place that dispersion? Right, If you're putting, you want to place that dispersion at least on short putts, about I don't know one or two feet behind the hole. Of course you can have, like the most, the greatest start line in the world when you're putting, but if you're leaving them all foot short, well they're not really going to be a great putter. So I think that's the next part and that becomes.

Speaker 3: 20:23

Then it becomes a pretty big thing, because then it becomes an education thing. It's like do you even know, like, where to aim the center of your dispersion? Do you know where you're supposed to hit it, Because you're not necessarily supposed to aim it at the flag. Every single time Actually, very rarely are you supposed to aim it at the flag.

Speaker 3: 20:39

Then the next thing becomes like do you understand how to read or gauge wind? I'll tell you something like the wind doesn't blow. Even if it blows the same miles per hour in Texas and in Denmark, it grabs the ball a lot more in Denmark than it does in Texas. So do you also gauge like air density? Do you know like temperature? That has an effect.

Speaker 3: 21:01

Then it becomes about lie recognition. How's the ball sitting? Even in the fairways it's sitting up down or in the middle. What type of grass am I hitting off of? If you have a track man, you hit off of enough places in the world with good golf balls. You find out the balls go very different distances, not only because of altitude and wind and temperature, but an air density, but also of the grass you're hitting from. So just because I'm hitting my seven iron 150 meters when I'm standing indoors in the simulator, that doesn't mean it's going 150 meters. It could go anywhere between 138 and 162, or maybe 17 or whatever, depending on where I'm at in the world. So knowing that you need to know it becomes pretty big, Then in all of that you can basically throw that out the window if you're thinking about what's for dinner when you're about to hit a golf shot, so that'd be present.

Speaker 2: 21:54

Yeah. So then, in essence, this is what you term as systematic coaching, a very holistically oriented approach to improving your golfers game, not just making swing changes but applying that swing on the field of play under pressure, where it matters.

Speaker 3: 22:15

And that's where I think the ball flight really comes into play, because if the player logically, if they actually know that if I do these things, I hit the ball closer to where I want it to go than when I just hit, why would they not do it? If I don't think about anything, I have a 50% chance of hitting the green. But if I make sure the ball position is right here and the handle location is right here and I make sure I do this one thing on the backswing or I follow through to here there's I hit 80% of these regulation, so why would you not Like? I don't think it's. I think the problem becomes when the player is practicing something and they're hidden at worse than they already were, or again there's an they get scared like, or they like it's ooh, it's uncomfortable. But if I, as a coach and good at applying the changes that I want to make or the adjustments or the improvements I want to make to the player, if I'm right, they should be hitting the ball better, yep.

Speaker 3: 23:10

And they should be able to take that fairly easily to the course.

Speaker 2: 23:13

So no such thing as getting worse before you get better. I've never seen anyone doing stack until go through that.

Speaker 3: 23:21

No no.

Speaker 2: 23:22

And that's what I thought was so impressive.

Speaker 2: 23:24

My first experience was with stack until was in 07. I took a 60 year old student. I didn't have much clubhead speed. You know I can't get my four iron up into the air. I said the ball position here, handle location. It started hitting hydro or iron and it's very counter intuitive because, like hey, hang on, you're going to put the ball, the ball back in your stance, and then you're going to put your weight forward. The gets the ball up in the air. It's counter intuitive to a lot of people but thankfully with.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Reda these things. You kind of can see why it works.

Speaker 3: 23:59

I thought it made sense as soon as I learned the actual ball flight loss. Yeah, I remember reading that 07 golf digest article when I was still a player. Going through the backwards ball flight, I was going like that looks like the biggest push slice in the world. That's what I would like. Open the face, All right. So the ball is going to end up over to the right and then on top of that then swing more to the right Like it's going to stay. That's how I looked at it, Like that's just because that was my system or whatever. That's how I organized stuff Right. So it just became really really. Hang on one second, I'm back.

Speaker 2: 24:35

We had talking about swinging to the right.

Speaker 3: 24:39

So but I mean if you know that opening the face well not only helps the ball start to the right, it also adds a lot to the club. And if you can get your path to the right of that face ball should be higher than if you're closing the face and put in the ball forward and swing to the left of that face.

Speaker 2: 24:54

So let's talk a little bit about the order of technical changes. Well, you and I spent a fair amount of time with a guy by the name of Kelvin Mayor here. Yeah, how has his system of looking at the golf swing through anatomical terms helped you.

Speaker 3: 25:13

I think that's what it actually helped with was the anatomy, was the actual anatomy, and helping out with I think him and actually Andy Plummer, really, really helped me out with knowing what am I looking at when I record a golf swing. If I just look at a video, what am I looking at? I think and again, right, I think some of the stuff. I think what help with Kelvin did was absolutely amazing. But I also felt like it became a lot of this is the right way of doing it and everybody else were wrong or it's not a. It's a, it's not a superior way of hitting a golf ball.

Speaker 3: 25:49

And I mean and I think I don't know, probably 10 years ago I think I also thought there was a superior way of hitting a golf ball. I don't really think there is any more. If I'm being honest, like as long as you just kind of conform to these things Because if you think about what I just said before, like all the things that goes into a guy being a really good approach player, if the only feedback player has is that every time the ball didn't go where I wanted it to go, it's because of my swing I think they will end up being disappointed in the end, but I do think for sure, like I really I shit I would read all those articles by Kelvin. I thought they were awesome. I even think like, if you look really far back, I think I even participated in one of those articles.

Speaker 2: 26:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:31

I stood out in the snow and, like I practiced some of these things.

Speaker 2: 26:36

I'll tell you exactly what the article was. It was an article for early extension. You had your hands next to a chair trying to keep it behind.

Speaker 3: 26:45

Yes.

Speaker 2: 26:46

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:47

Yeah, that was amazing. It showed us right.

Speaker 2: 26:52

It showed us that a fix is sometimes is illogical, not what we think it should be.

Speaker 3: 26:58

No, oh for sure, right. And again, you're looking at 2D video. I mean, if you don't look at it as a three-dimensional movement 2D video, it becomes pretty confusing. That's what I also think is a golf instructor. I don't use a lot of 3D, but I really, really like studying 3D. I really enjoy looking at graphs and I used to do that all the time just to basically train my eyes Like what am I looking at here? And I think that's really really good. But again, if that's where you start, then you're probably in trouble, because then you don't know what the point of it was. The point was to get the ball to behave better. Yeah, all the points under that.

Speaker 2: 27:39

Like Jesse and I always have this saying the golf swing is simply applying the club face to the ball. That's the very essence of the golf swing and if you cut your golf swing it can help you apply the sweet spot to the ball consistently. Then we're going to see why that is so and that's where diagnostic tools come in. But I think, a lot of. I think there's this bifurcation, there's this divide between instructors oh, I'm only going to be high tech. Then there are some guys like we go I only want to be low tech. So, with that in mind, can you talk a little bit about what coaches misunderstand about having a system? Because doctors have a system?

Speaker 3: 28:19

I think yeah of course they do.

Speaker 2: 28:21

Of course, if you ever go to a doctor who doesn't have a system and say hey, I'm going to teach, I'm going to diagnose you by a steel, Andreas, we would run out of that.

Speaker 3: 28:30

Let's, let's, let's try this out. Well, I think you, I think I don't think that you have to have one system. I think people like I think all the best coaches that I've observed and learned from, they all have a system in place. Now they might call it something else, they might call it a decision tree, or they might. They might not even be aware of it, but I for sure see systems. When I see this, I will try to do this.

Speaker 3: 29:02

Oh, why did you decide to do that as your first option? Well, because that works the most often. Okay, what you can do, that's not going to work. Well, then I'm going to go to option B and C and D, like that's. You've got to have some sort of system in place. Now I think a lot of people are scared of being pigeonholed. Oh, you're a system coach. Of course I'm like who would not be a system coach?

Speaker 3: 29:23

You have, like there's, there's, like to a lesson, there's, there's basically three phases, right, like there's what, like what's going on. Now you can, in that area, you can do. I mean, I guess you can diagnose for days and put people through 3D labs and you can put them in how you can do blood work and you can do all kinds of stuff if you wanted to, or you can. At the very least you can probably record the swing and look through it but, like, what's going on? If you're fortunate, you have a launch monitor so you can actually also see what's going on with the golf ball and what's going on and impact with the clubs of the golf ball.

Speaker 3: 29:57

But that's the what right. Then there's the why. Like I wonder why he's doing that. Is it just because he thinks that's the right way to do it? Or is it because he really, like, maybe he might be trying to do what he's actually doing? Or it's because there's something you know, you have like injury, or there's injury prevention, or you have like a bad knee or a bad hip, or or whatever.

Speaker 3: 30:18

And then the last part's the how. All right, how are we going to fix this? I think a lot of people end up like I think you got to be good in those three areas. And I think a lot of people, if they don't know the, the what, so if they're like initial analysis of what's going on isn't spot on or they're not confident that it's spot on, then if the, then the why and the how doesn't work the very first time, then they all of a sudden they start changing the what they go like oh, that must be something different. Or it might just be that your very first advice or your very first way to improve this problem just wasn't right for that player. All right, we're going to go with option number two or three or four, just like if you go to the doctor, right, I have a cold, all right, here's I don't know like some no spray and some pills. Okay, I did, did it for five days. It didn't really go away. All right, might be like a little worse than I thought. Let's do this instead, but it's not going to be like all right, let's check how you're. Something else is doing. So I think. I think that's the important part.

Speaker 3: 31:22

I think what I've experienced now we've done these things called systematic coaching for two years now my human myself, and so far at least, what I've learned on what I've experienced is that a lot of coaches have a wealth of knowledge They've attended a lot of seminars and they have accumulated a lot of knowledge and they just don't. They have a hard time organizing it, so they don't know when to use what, so they get thrown around and like they attend I don't know something, now that's what I coach. And then they attend something different. And now that's what I coach. And then they attend something different and now that's what I coach, instead of looking at it as like they're adding. They're adding knowledge and they're adding tools to their toolbox, so now they can help even more people. Or they have a couple of blind spots where there's some.

Speaker 3: 32:14

When this happens in a golf swing, I'm not sure what to do. Oh, I learned that at this seminar, so now I'm going to add that to my toolbox Instead of going. Now I'm going to wipe this like clean. I'm going to start over Now. This is what I'm teaching.

Speaker 2: 32:26

Does that make sense? Yeah, it sounds like those guys have plenty of tools from all these seminars, but the toolbox is not organized in a coherent way.

Speaker 3: 32:37

Yeah, so it's like okay, I got a drill from Andreas.

Speaker 2: 32:40

Yeah, I got a drill from Andreas, let's go drill some holes. And then next week I go see Hugh. Hugh gives me a hammer, let's go look for some nails of hammer. And I think what you say resonates with what I see is like, oh, what's golf digest talking about? What's Twitter saying? And then you just go try it. It works like, hey, you keep doing it until the next best thing. And is this journey where you just keep circling the desert without actually reaching the top of the mountain? And the funny thing is you mentioned they've got all the information, they've got all the tools. All they need is a system. I think most do?

Speaker 3: 33:19

Yeah, I think so At least. Then I guess there could be other people who feel differently. I have no clue, but I wouldn't know what to do. I wouldn't know what to decide if I didn't have a system in place, Like, just as an example I got this from Andy, but I think it's a great example Like player shows up, they're push slicing the golf ball.

Speaker 3: 33:37

Why is the player push slicing the golf ball? Well, the face to path is open. Fair enough. But why is the face to path open? Is it because they are swinging too far to the right? Is it because they might be swinging too far to the left? Is it because their chest is too closed? It might be because their chest is too open. Is it because their lead wrist is too extended? Or pellet? Might be because their lead wrist is too flexed. Those could all be reasons for push slicing a ball. How do I know which one it is? That's the next part. Is that's why I think people also need some sort of model, so I know when is something too much or when is something not enough.

Speaker 2: 34:13

So actually let's talk a little bit about your method quote, unquote, stack and tilt and what people misunderstand about it. You know you mentioned, you mentioned a model. So the funny thing is this right, you really understand stack and tilt. You realize it's a system of spectrums. There's a range for every position.

Speaker 3: 34:32

Yes, I think that was the most important thing. Sorry, you go ahead.

Speaker 2: 34:35

No, I say it's easier to just see it and attack it without trying to understand, going under the hood and understanding what's this system?

Speaker 3: 34:44

Yeah, I think that's the very first. I would recall this is the very first thing I learned from Andy was looking at who was it? It was Troy Madison and JJ Henry on a spectrum up against each other where one guy can't get the driver in the air because he doesn't spin the ball enough and the other guy can't hold the green with the same words because he's spinning them off every green. And of course the two of them move different, completely differently, and of course the way they need to improve is completely different. One of them needs to add spin, he needs to open the face to the path, he needs to create more angle of attack, and the other guy or I guess now the really big word is spin loft, right, one of the guy needs to add spin loft and the other guy needs to take some spin loft off of it. Yeah, so of course, what they are practicing and the way they practice is completely different, and I think that's your spectrum right, and I think that's basically how all of it works. It always works on spectrum.

Speaker 2: 35:39

Let's talk a little bit about Andy's impact on you. You used to say that you could finish Andy's sentences. Talk a little bit about your so-called apprenticeship and his mentorship view and the time that you guys have spent together.

Speaker 3: 35:54

No, it's been like. So we haven't actually haven't seen him since COVID. Just because I ended up getting busy, it became a little bit more difficult to get to the States. But before that, I think for those eight years I think I may, I think I like at least saw him once a year, but likely two to three times a year. I would attend pretty much whatever network training was around. If he wasn't Denmark, I would offer to drive him to wherever he needs to go. I think I've spent 20 to 25 days watching him coach. Well, I really think the magic is actually watching him coach and teach, because I think that's the really brilliant part of him is that he's a teacher and a coach and I think he's really, really good at knowing when to teach and knowing when to coach. I think I spent those eight years.

Speaker 3: 36:49

In the beginning I spent a lot of time just trying to copy pretty much everything he did, because I just thought that those were the best golf lessons I'd ever seen. So it's like all right. I just think about it like what would Andy do in this situation? I'm just going to do that Worked out pretty well. I watched hell, I don't know how many like hundreds of hours of recordings of seminars that friends of mine had recorded also that I would just listen to in my car, or if I was picking balls on the range or something I think. On top of that after a while I don't know it just got me thinking like okay, I felt like, keep listening, keep listening, keep listening.

Speaker 3: 37:27

And the way I actually usually learn most stuff is to try and poke holes in it. So I'd start poking holes and every time I'd meet Andy I would have a list of new questions, just because it helps my understanding. It's not about right and wrong. I'm just way better if I poke holes and stuff, or learn way better, instead of just sitting there and nodding. I did that for a long time. He's been really, really hard to poke holes in, and when I had no more holes to poke, really I was like all right, I think I get it now and I won't say that like. I was like okay, now I'm done, now I'm going to move on, because I'm not. But I was like you know what? I'm pretty good now. I don't need to like go further down this rabbit hole.

Speaker 3: 38:09

Now I think it's time for me to see if I can improve upon what Andy taught me, and not necessarily in the geometry. I'm not trying to produce a new whole flight law or produce like something, but see if I can find, can I find better ways, drills to accomplish the things that Andy would use or the ways Andy would do it. That's basically been, technically, basically been the goal ever since. It's like can I polish this up, like how come I end up down, like how come all my players end up with this problem or some of them end up with this problem, or what am I missing in all these different things?

Speaker 3: 38:46

And I think that I have, over the years now the way my coaching deal is set up, I see my players a lot very, very often. So I don't really give a lot of like lessons, I just see them all the time and then we work when they need work, and a lot of the time I just observe or I challenge or I do something else. But I think through that. I think Andy was really good at getting somebody like to completely change in 20 minutes and I think with the way my program works, which is very long term, I think I'd rather like it to just kind of slowly, gradually improve over time instead of like completely changing something in one day to the next. But my situation is different also.

Speaker 2: 39:32

Yeah, I mean I'm amazed at the number of professional, successful, professional golfers that Scandinavia has turned up. Sweden's good example. We had Gabriel Jittstedt on last week, yeah, and in Denmark they're almost as good as Denmark. What's the reason for that? I mean, you guys have the harshest weather around. I've been to Norway. It's no joke at minus 10 degrees Celsius. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's probably to do with the number of golf courses per capita and the ease of access.

Speaker 3: 40:06

Yeah, I would say that's likely. The number one thing is actually the ease of access. Like how affordable golf is will make a huge difference. It is one of the cheaper sports you can play in Denmark. No, it's, I mean a junior membership at a club in Denmark where you can play as much as you want, you can hit as many balls as you want. You get one hour of like weekly group training. Is what is that? $120 a year, a year.

Speaker 3: 40:35

Yeah, that's really cheap, man, so membership wise golf is no, it's the huge advantage. Like we're, basically, all our youth has at least the opportunity to play golf versus places where it's like the top percentile. Who has the opportunity to play golf? Who do you think is hungry? Or who do you think, like you think, every like, it's just like if you're a runner in Jamaica, at least like you've, you've really tried running on a track, right, yeah, so I think I think that's probably. I think that's number one, and I think it's the same in Sweden.

Speaker 3: 41:06

Now, of course can golf be expensive in Denmark. Of course it can be. It's, I mean, you can make it as expensive as you want, but it doesn't have to be. The clubs pay a lot of the places. The clubs pay for the players' tournament fees. If you're a junior golfer, all you need is a golf set, and it doesn't have to be the newest, nicest, whatever you can like. Get a, you know, an older set or something like that, at least over time. There's a lot of the equipment manufacturers are good. If you're decent at golf, they're good at giving you some pretty good discounts on equipment. The clubs pay for your tournament entries, so it doesn't have to be all that expensive. That gives us a huge leg up compared to everybody else.

Speaker 3: 41:44

It's also an interesting thing to see if we go to the Danish third level pros, go to a place like Germany to play like a co-sanctioned event between the Pro Golf Tour and the Nordic League, like you can certainly see in the car park who is who are the Nordic League players and who are the players from Germany and Holland and these places. You've got like BMW and Fives and like Mercedes and all these things on one side and then you've got like these little bitty Volkswagen ups and like all these little crap cars on the other side, and it's usually the guys with the crap cars who end up winning. So I think, I think honestly, I think that's number one. I don't know how it works in Sweden, but I do know that in Denmark we have a very, very good dialogue.

Speaker 3: 42:28

The what are the? Let's just say we're five or six coaches outside of the Danish Golf Union or the national coaches who coach a lot of the really good players. There's six national team coaches. The six of them and the six of us have a very, very good dialogue, so it doesn't become about like coaches taking over or being pissed. I feel like we're all helping the player out as much as we can, where at least my impression is that, at least in the rest of Europe, it's pretty much every single coach who brought up a player who gets into the national team. They hate the national team coaches because then they take over from there and then they teach them something differently and a lot of players stagnate when they then get into that program because now they have to adjust to a whole new coach, language, methodology, etc. Etc. Right, a lot to learn from the Danish system.

Speaker 3: 43:19

Our socialists who.

Speaker 2: 43:22

Glyde how do you get hooked up with a human Chinese story?

Speaker 3: 43:30

So he came and presented at the Danish PTA Summit a couple of years ago. That year Marcus, who I coach, had just won the Challenge Tour but hadn't made his debut on the DP World Tour yet. I don't mind making mistakes, but I really enjoy learning from other people's mistakes, or I prefer to do that. So when he was done presenting, I asked if I could get his phone number because I actually had some questions for him because he'd been out on the DP World Tour for 20 years and I basically wanted to just learn dos and dos. Not long afterwards during that day actually, like I said in my hotel room and I wrote him a text, like do you, can I buy you a beer or something? I just want to talk. And we sat down and we started to talk and I think we started talking at like five o'clock.

Speaker 3: 44:17

And before you know it, it's like 3.30 in the morning. We're pretty drunk, but we had some really good conversations, like the dos and dos ended up taking 20 minutes and the rest was about all kinds of stuff, and what we really found out was that we were extremely different in a lot of the ways we do things and very, very different in what we believe in and what we think is more important than other things and how the player moves. I think some of it comes from our background. He's been out on tours trying to get players to make money every week for 20 years, whereas most of my players I meet them when they're like 11, 12, 13 years old, so I have a little bit longer of a leash at least. Like I need to educate players, he needs to just make sure that they function every week.

Speaker 3: 45:09

But what we did agree on was that systems were important and you started the golf ball, which was basically what we read upon Like. I think our analysis are different. I think our, our wives are different and I think for sure our house are different, but the thing was that at least our resume say that most of the players that come to us get better and we agree that we?

Speaker 3: 45:35

think this would be a better seminar that we both did it together, because we don't agree on a whole lot and we don't have to agree on a whole lot. There's a couple of key things we have to agree on is that it starts at the golf ball and you have to have a system, but what's in it doesn't have to be the same, where usually a lot of seminars that I've gone to is like this is how you should do it, and I'm not. I think that sometimes also gets confusing, instead of people actually seeing that there's a lot of different ways of being fairly successful. So we agreed on that and we decided you know what, let's think it was you who said it. You know like? He's looking at me, going like dude, people would like learn from this.

Speaker 3: 46:16

If we had just recorded these seven hours that we've just said I wasn't even said that it was like 10 hours we've been sitting around talking. If we recorded these 10 hours, coaches would have improved. So he goes let's, let's try and make a seminar out of it. So we've done it and we have done it over. We've been in Austria, done a couple in different places. In England we're going to Barcelona in March, going to go into San Francisco in June. Can't wait to do that. So let's yeah, we've done that feels good. I feel like we're helping people out. I think it feels real like we're helping coaches improve, which means we are hoping golfers getting better.

Speaker 2: 46:54

Yeah, and all these seven hours can be found on Hughes website on the systematic coach systematic coaching 1.0 and 2.0. Yeah, we have.

Speaker 3: 47:03

we've had some of them recorded it and we thought, just because there's some people, we screwed up the dates and stuff and it's in season it's hard to figure out when it's actually good for people to attend these things so we decided to record them. So some people were actually just sitting there online zoom, watching these seminars, asked what we're doing it, asking questions to make it interactive, yeah. And then we've got the other ones coming up right. So we've got the Barcelona one and the San Francisco one at Olympic Club. I can't wait to see that place. That's nice. I actually really look forward to getting one of those hot dogs with the beef in it.

Speaker 1: 47:41

They're called. They're called burger dogs.

Speaker 3: 47:43

Burger dogs Exactly that's the one I'm looking forward to.

Speaker 2: 47:47

They're really good and any any wits of advice for coaches, and spine could be like you.

Speaker 3: 47:53

Hmm, I think the cool thing is that actually you dig deep enough, a lot of what you need to learn is actually online, like there's a lot and there's even more Now. There's even back tapes on YouTube and stuff. Right, there wasn't back then. Um, I think if I was going to say something, I would say get the get really, really good at the basics of the game, and I don't mean necessarily grip, set up posture, I would say become an absolute expert on whole flight. So that means, do the trackman university. I think that's free of charge. Actually do like all of it. You can afterwards go on YouTube, find John Graham's old B-plane video.

Speaker 2: 48:34

Oh yeah, which is really dry, but it's also very, very educational. James, that's right, for that matter.

Speaker 3: 48:40

Yeah, Even the James light ones. Do those Even watch, help watch. Brian Menzel is 30 minute deep plane video on that little plane thing he's got. But I really like become an absolute black belt in both. Like you don't need to have. It's great, it's great to have a launch monitor, but you don't need to have it to educate yourself in this. I didn't have it for the first four years. Four years I coached golf but just because I knew all flight loss helped me improve. I could look at a golf ball and go like you know what, I wasn't getting the path right, but I knew it was like somewhat to the right and the face was close to the path. I could see that because the ball was starting right and drawn back Right. I at least I get that right Even purchase Theo Jorgensen's physics of golf.

Speaker 2: 49:30

Read it.

Speaker 3: 49:30

Read it, study it, cause I think that if you don't have that right, you just like if you were coding, like get the first part right and then you can start like moving out from there.

Speaker 2: 49:45

Correct, yes.

Speaker 3: 49:48

I would, I would attend. Like I would attend stack and sell train. Like that doesn't mean that I don't care, like. If people use the brand to like help their business or they don't want to be. Like, use the brand Whatever is good by me. I don't think anybody has ever gotten worse.

Speaker 2: 50:04

Worst.

Speaker 3: 50:05

By attending stack and sell training. I think they've only gotten better. I think. If you don't, I think what do I think? I think you're scared of something and I think you're scared of being judged and all these different things. And, to be honest, like I've been, I don't think there's a name in the book I haven't been called Denmark. And the amount of players that have been told by other coaches that all this stuff, I can talk stuff right. No, you're doing the all this stuff right. And the beginning, in the beginning, in the beginning, it would. I would get angry and I'd call people up and go like dude, what do you think? Like, why are you doing this? Right? And the end of the day, I can't change all of that Like the only thing I need to like. My entire, my entire business is built around helping players improve. So, honestly, what do I really care about what people who I don't really know think of me?

Speaker 2: 50:52

Yeah, you can't please everyone. And the reason why? Why?

Speaker 3: 50:57

why I'm not trying either.

Speaker 2: 50:59

Yeah, yeah. Why is coaches used to tell me that from the start, you know what? You can't please everyone, and when you finally get the results that they want, they will come to you. True enough, yeah, that's been my experience, right.

Speaker 3: 51:13

Like back, we went to. I mean, we went to. It's what's that? Now, 10, 12 years ago, we're going to the PGA summit.

Speaker 3: 51:19

Nobody would hardly like a lot well, somewhat, but a lot of people wouldn't even talk to me, they wouldn't shake my hand because I was the dude, the junior academy, teaching people all these technical things, making things too complicated, hurting people. I was the stack and tilt guy, yada, yada, yada. 10 years later, we've got guys on the European tour who weren't even a national team Back when we started with them. We've got guys in the challenge tour. We've got girls playing the LPGA, playing the Olympics, all these different things.

Speaker 3: 51:49

And all of a sudden everybody wants to say hello, right, it was like, dude, I didn't change, like I'm still doing what I was doing. Nobody got hurt, people improved. Yeah, and it's. And again, I'm not going to try and change people's mind. I'm going to do my thing and do it as best as I can. I don't. Luckily, I don't have all the answers, so I keep like trying to figure them out. Now I'm like going to a deep dive on like breath and how I think breath might like have a really big effect on how, how present I can be when I actually execute a golf shot.

Speaker 3: 52:23

Oh, the sympathetic, I think yeah, I think there's something there that could help my players out. So you know what I think it's worth pursuing.

Speaker 2: 52:32

You need to invite Wim Hof, the academy.

Speaker 3: 52:36

Yeah Well, he's little too crazy for me, I think, but he said, for sure there's something, there's something down that road. Well, I think there's some really good stuff that happens. I can't help but think of these like world champion, like boxers and MMA artists and guys like that who basically, like Floyd Mayweather, looks like he's the most relaxed person in the world until that bell rings and then he looks like an absolute murderer. Same thing goes for Tyson Fury and these guys that can just kind of like click in and out and I think that has I don't know. All right, this is just something I think. I think that might have some really big value and high performance. Golf, where you basically have to check in and out like quite a bit over 72 alternative.

Speaker 2: 53:18

Yeah, and I wonder how they do it. We have a friend by the name of Jane Story who's been doing Tai Chi and golf for the longest time. She has done a lot of research on breath and golf. It might be worth checking her. I think she's written what Jesse's three books connected but thing breath and connected golf.

Speaker 1: 53:39

She's got a new one coming out to your very soon, okay.

Speaker 2: 53:43

JAYNESTOREY Jane Story.

Speaker 3: 53:48

I'm writing down as we speak, jane Story. Yeah, and currently I'm just I'm reading a book called breath, which I just think is by James Nestor James. Nestor, exactly.

Speaker 2: 54:05

And I think fairly.

Speaker 3: 54:07

So now I'm not. So. Now I don't breathe through my nose anymore, at least, or in through my mouth. It's all through my nose.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Yeah, and then, and then he wrote about people having like the. You know, when they're growing up we have jaw lines and all that if you're breathing through your mouth. So I tell my two girls, seven and five, you breathe through your nose, not your mouth. You want a nice jaw line. You do so. In closing, Andreas, what will you be doing in 10 years time?

Speaker 3: 54:35

10 years I will be 51. I will more than likely still be at the same junior academy I'm at. I really enjoy it. It's a fun journey to be on with these players. Think in 10 years my boys will be 21 and 24 years old. They probably won't see me later when we leave me around all that much anymore. I'll probably likely travel a little bit more on the DP World Tour.

Speaker 2: 55:06

I'm going to Singapore. It's my sign there.

Speaker 3: 55:08

Yeah, you could even go to Singapore, right? I have an expectation that within the next five years, that five of our players will have at least full category in DP World Tour. Better, it might sound a bit arrogant, but I think that's the direction it's heading. So I'll have to travel a little bit more. I have an expectation that I'll still be traveling doing some seminars if coaches want me to come and help them out.

Speaker 3: 55:39

I didn't know that that's something I enjoyed, but I really, really enjoyed it. I find it extremely meaningful knowing that, because, I mean, that's the problem as a golf coach is that you only have certain X amount of hours in the day. If I really want to make a difference and help golfers enjoy the game better, I can't coach anymore than I already do, so I have two options Either I make an online video set or something, which I'm not sure how much that's going to do. It could help some people at Slice maybe, but I'm not sure it becomes a little too general. So I think if I can help other coaches organize their stuff better, if they can learn from some of my mistakes, maybe even hold onto it, maybe even grab onto a couple of things that I prefer. I think that's what I want to do, and we'll see if that's what ends up happening.

Speaker 2: 56:29

Where can I listen to this? Find you?

Speaker 3: 56:32

Well, on Instagram probably. I have a website, but to be honest it's not even really finished. I wouldn't look at my website. I would go on Instagram and find me on Andres Caligol, they can. If they are golf pros and they want to learn some more, they can either go to Humar's website. Is it just Humar Golf, or is it Humar?

Speaker 2: 56:58

It's actually coacheducationslashhumarcom. I'll put all of that in the show notes so that our listeners know where to go.

Speaker 3: 57:06

We have a couple of videos that are available to purchase. I don't know if people are being nice or the reviews are really good, but people have been really, really happy with them. The people have watched them. Again, we're going to Barcelona in late March. If anybody wants to attend there, they're more than welcome. Again, we're going to San Francisco. I think I have a couple of other things without Hugh coming up like Austria going to the PGA Summit in Germany and then, if not, people can reach out. I'm not the greatest at responding fast to things just because I'm fairly busy, but I do have some admin time at times where I sit down and try to clean up my inbox and respond to everybody who writes me. So if people have questions, they can reach out. And again, I travel a bit, so if people see me like, they should come over and say hello. At least. I like meeting other golf coaches.

Speaker 2: 58:02

Fantastic, and there you have it, andreas Kali, one of the best golf coaches in the world. Thanks for driving.

Speaker 3: 58:08

Thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Andreas.

Speaker 3: 58:09

Thanks guys, thanks guys.