Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Hello and welcome to Flaghunters ! It is a privilege to bring to you this powerful insight into playing better Golf. In all my years of being in the game of Golf from competing at a high amateur level, to caddying, teaching, and being a overall Golf geek, I have an insatiable, curiosity driven desire to get down to the bottom of what it takes to truly get better playing the game of Golf that we all unconditionally love. This has been one of the greatest journeys of my life and I am deeply grateful for all that Golf has given me. Thank you for joining me in this incredible journey. This is my ever evolving love letter to Golf. Jesse Perryman P.S. Please Rate, Review and Subscribe !
Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Redefining Golf: A Conversation with Laurie Montague and Justin Tang
Feel free to text me at (831)275-8804
Hello and welcome once again to another edition of the Flaghunters Golf Podcast ! Get ready to revolutionize your golf game as we hear from the seasoned PGA teaching professional and forthcoming author, Laurie Montague. With decades of experience and a holistic approach to teaching, Laurie's insights are set to transform your understanding of golf, whether you're an amateur or a seasoned pro. From precision ball hitting to tackling the trickiest lies, let Laurie guide you towards a deeper appreciation of the game.
We'll explore the wisdom behind a 'beginner's mind', the crucial role of adaptability, trust, and curiosity in your golfing journey. Learn the art of decision-making on the greens, just like the greats, Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods. Understand the significance of skill acquisition and adapting to different course conditions and situations.
Our conversation doesn't stop there. We'll also explore how golf coaching can foster creativity and fun, the business model of golf coaches, and how we can encourage a love for the game. Keep an ear out as Laurie also gives us a teaser of his new book, Strategic Golf Practice, emphasizing the need for preparation, creativity, and adaptability in golf. This episode is brimming with holistic golf wisdom from one of the industry's most seasoned professionals. Get ready to shake off your old perspective and embrace a new way of seeing golf.
You can find Lawrie easiest on YouTube at GolfUniversity. You can find Justin on Instagram @elitegolfswing. You can also find me on Instagram @flaghguntersgolfpod. You can also find me on Twitter/X @PodFlag.
Hello and welcome to the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. My name is Jesse Perriam and I am your host and in this episode, along with my sometimes co-host and brother from another mother and born of the same ilk, justin Tang. Justin is the lead instructor at the Tana Merah Golf Club in Singapore and when I started this podcast, I really wanted to seek out holistic teachers and and it wasn't a surprise that Justin was such a great fit and he and I definitely think the same about what information we want to get out to the player, to the better player in this case. But all of the information benefits all and we really talked in great depth about what it means to teach, what it means to learn and how we can learn and get better and go out and enjoy ourselves even that much more by hitting great golf shots, actually going out and having great rounds and playing well and hitting the ball in the center of the face and coming away with a deep inner satisfaction that those who play this game and play this game of golf well know the sensation that I'm talking about, that feeling, and our guest this week really provides all of the bullet points that we hit on in spades.
Speaker 1:His name is Laurie Montague. Laurie is originally from Australia. He's a 30 year teaching PGA teaching professional and is a part of golf university on YouTube and is coming out with a new book here shortly and I don't know if he wants to give away the title quite yet, but when it's going to be in print I will make sure to send out all those links to everybody who is interested. But Laurie really represents the game and teaching from a holistic sense. He's going to teach you a proper swing motion. He's going to teach you to understand the feels, the intricacies of the feels. He's also going to teach you how to play. He's going to teach you how to hit golf shots. He's going to teach you to how to get out of buried lies, how to get out of awkward stances, funky lies in the rough. Maybe you have to hit a low draw around a tree or high fade up and over a tree. He is what Justin and I would call a holistic coach, and a damn good one at that. He's primarily specializing in teaching juniors now, but the way he teaches is the way that we naturally learn. There's not a ton of critical information that we have to process via the left brain, but more or less. He can certainly teach in that regard. He is educated in multi-disciplines, including the golf machine and all that good stuff, as most good instructors are, but he teaches in a way that's fun and it's easy to learn. He's currently in Jakarta.
Speaker 1:This was a fun conversation. I really enjoyed talking to Lori and Justin. As always, I hope you get out of it as much as I got out of it. It was enjoyable. Lori, I appreciate you for coming on and, once again, justin for taking the time out of his busy schedule and both of their busy schedules to help us all, as a listener, as the seeker, get better point in the game of golf and enjoying it. Not so much the instruction part, but the way that Lori speaks. He's easy to understand. It's not coming from a drill sergeant perspective. He's coming from a perspective that is easy to follow and it's more inquisitive versus a drill sergeant, kind of a commander that barks instructions out and expects you to get it right away. Lori, isn't that? That's why Justin and I had him on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Sit back and relax and listen to this and get Lori's wisdom and have it become the part of you To make sure to use it next time that you've got a golf club in your hand and you can go back and think what did Lori say on Jesse's podcast and use that wisdom to benefit you. But anyway, when Lori is ready to publish his new book and I just started reading the manuscript and it's fabulous I'm going to make sure that everybody gets the links to that. I'll put it up on my Instagram and on my Twitter. Excuse me now X, which I'm trying to build a little bit more and get a little bit more engagement out there, and that's flag hunters on Twitter. It's at pod flag, capital, p, o, d and then flag.
Speaker 1:I think it's all one word. But anyway, if you type in Jesse Perryman, you're going to find it and you can also find Lori in the interim before his new book. I mentioned it before. You're going to find them on YouTube easiest. At golf university it's all one word G, o L F, capital G and then O L F and then a capital U and I versity and check out what he's got on there. It's pretty cool. He's got a cool little YouTube channel. That's pretty, very practical, super simple to follow and, like I said before, very easy to understand.
Speaker 1:So, without further ado, here comes the episode and just remember to do your best to stay in the moment.
Speaker 1:I've got a great podcast with Jane story about that and that's going to really help you to not only get out of your own way but just enjoy this game, and this game is meant to be enjoyed. That is definitely the case in the game of golf and I hope everybody finds their way this week to that enjoyment and finds it Well. Cheers everyone, hello and welcome to another great edition of the flag on his golf podcast where we uncover every stone. We have a special guest today. His name is Laurie Montague. He is in Jakarta, indonesia, originally from Australia, and then, of course, my brother from another mother, justin Tang, who is the lead instructor at the Tan Ameri Golf Club in Singapore, and you guys are really far away. We're doing this zoom podcast here at some odd times, but one of the great advances in technology is that we can do this. So thanks, gentlemen, for coming on and accommodating the different times and different areas in the world and folks. This is going to be a great conversation.
Speaker 2:Thanks, jesse, thanks Laurie. So for our listeners, laurie Montague is a long-time PG of Australia professional, the former national coach of Australia and the current director of coaching and player development of the National Golf Institute of Indonesia. More critically for all of you, laurie is an expert in the attainment of peak performance. I'm very privileged to be able to call him friend and mentor. Thanks for your time, laurie. Can you give us, our listeners, some background color and how you got to where you are? Thanks, justin.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure to be joining you and Jesse on your show. And, yeah, my background I think the best way to start is many years ago, when I was a young man, just having not long been a professional. I was fortunate enough to have a business mentor early in my life and he gave me some great advice. And one of the bits of advice he gave me was as you move forward through your life, particularly in this game of golf, he said, do yourself a favor, and when they're all going in one direction, you go the opposite way. That's the first thing he said to me. He said because you will see that a lot of people will follow the trends. And he said I want you to look the other way because, he said, a lot of the things that you'll be looking for in your life that will solve a lot of your problems, are probably not going to come from the same place. They're all searching.
Speaker 3:So it's the difference the way he put it to me was Justin was the difference between imitation and innovation. He said being an innovator, not an imitator, and what that essentially meant was for me that I was going to look under stones that were not related to golf at all like. I looked at what the military was doing in terms of the way they were training people. I looked at what people in business were doing and I looked everywhere to find ways to extract more of the potential that lies within everybody. And that's been a journey of well over 30 years, many books read and lots of miles traveled, and I'm still doing that to this day.
Speaker 3:So I would have to say that I sit a little bit on the edge of the spectrum when it comes to professionals. I like to look from afar and not comment too much, just observe and learn from afar. There's a lot of debates and discussions that I would never want to get involved with because, quite frankly, they don't go anywhere. They go round and round in circles, and I see golf a lot of ways being like that that they get excited about things that don't last very long and it ends up coming back to the same place, and I think that's what we're going to talk about tonight. We're going to be able to talk about some of those things that are not being discussed enough with. Having the great pleasure to talk to both you and Jesse about this will be fantastic, and I'm all open ears. And what I'll learn as much as I can from you guys while I have the opportunity.
Speaker 2:As much as we will learn from you. And in the last two minutes there's lots of stuff to think. Let's I took some notes let's talk about going the opposite direction and not being a trend follower. Today's coaching, modern coaching is is full of trends, and you just need to go to YouTube and search golf string instruction and you see the prevailing trend of the month. Everyone does the same thing, but no one has the objectivity to ask hey, this is not working. Is this right for me? As Jesse and I are fond of saying everything is right, but is it correct for you?
Speaker 2:And I guess, in interviewing so many great coaches like yourself, what really stands out is this the great coaches don't debate on who's right, who's wrong. They let facts speak for themselves and, more importantly, they take a very holistic view of things, of the golf swing, the game of golf and you mentioned that you studied from great businesses this. Great businessmen tend to be very holistic in their way of thinking. Because if I'm running McDonald's, then it's not just about my happy meal, it's not just about my Coke, it's not just about my fries, it's about the cleanliness of my restaurant, it's also about the packaging, it's about the feel good factor. It's about the toys that I give to Jesse when he buys two happy meals so that he can give it to his girls. It's an all-encompassing approach and I find that this way of thinking eludes the good many golf teaching professionals, and I'm also very inspired by that one sentence. You said that you sit on the edge and learning never stops for you.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think you can ever get to that place. Jesse mentioned early in the pre-talk about the beginner's mind, which is Shoshin in Japanese describes the beginner's mind. It's the kneeling on the mat before you walk. It's the reverence you have for what you're doing and the place you're doing. It like to be in the dojo and it's a special place to be.
Speaker 3:Golf for us, when we step on the golf course, is a special place to be. But is it all about just swinging the club perfectly, getting all your alignments right? Is it about that? Well, it's about so many things. If we made a list in fact I had the students in my program the other day. We did a little exercise and I said I want you to write down all the input factors that would be involved in you performing well on the golf course. Just start to make a list, compile everything you can possibly think about that has some influence on you performing on the golf course. Well, that list went on and on and on. It covered so many different aspects of the game. So here are juniors being asked that question and then they start to get this expansive look on the game that it's so much more than is my back swing on playing so much more than that.
Speaker 2:Indeed, and I feel very much for the junior that's taught exclusively only how to manage their golf swing technique, because it's going to lead down a road of pain and extreme disappointment.
Speaker 3:Likely, the nature of the game being what it is. I mean, gosh, I saw a statistic the other day and I don't know how accurate it was, but it was the average to a player. It was taken on current stats. It was 11.7 greens hitting regulation. Well, we could go back 50 years ago and they were hitting about 12 greens around. Then we could probably go back another 30 years ago, beyond that, so 80 years ago and they were still hitting about 12 greens around. So, yes, golf courses have got longer and technologies changed and so on, but they're hitting about two thirds of the green, which means that, as good as they can swing it, whatever that happens to mean, they're still not hitting every green in regulation. No one's figured that one out yet. So that's about as perfect as you can get. If the best in the world are hitting about 12 greens around there are abouts plus or minus then there's obviously a lot more to the game, because the best players in the world are going to shoot 71 or better, hitting that many greens. So there's a lot of things that aren't being discussed or focused on, particularly by the media, which is a shame.
Speaker 3:We're perpetuating this endless cycle of it kind of works like this, guys. I think it's you go out and you play golf. You notice there's a problem. You focus on the problem. You go get the problem fixed. You got to play golf. You notice there's a problem. You focus on the problem, you don't get fixed. You don't play golf. So it's this endless cycle, this fault and fixed cycle, if you will, and it all seems to revolve around the the. You know my slice is slicing too much or whatever it happens to be, but I think they're missing the boat and I think that's what we're all coming together and going to be discussing some of the other aspects of it, other than how well you can swing the golf club.
Speaker 2:I like what you talk about finding problems and fixing them. Here's the irony of it those guys who believe in the approach are oftentimes not able to diagnose what the actual problem is. They're able to diagnose the symptoms, but they can't accurately pinpoint the cause, and that leads to an endless cycle of fix the so-called problem, rinse and repeat.
Speaker 2:It's basically running on a treadmill. You're not going forwards, neither are you going backward, and I think it's been said once that you're after playing serious golf for two years. If that's your handicap, that's it, you're done. I think there's an element of truth to that Interesting, because unless you can change your approach, you're not going to find the solution that you're looking for. Einstein once said you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. That's the actual definition of insanity, and I think most golfers, by the definition, are insane.
Speaker 3:Yeah sure, absolutely.
Speaker 3:It may be something to be said, though, that the custodians of the game, the people that are introducing the game to people and encouraging people to do it under this broad banner called grows the game.
Speaker 3:If you're standing on a driving range and I mean no disrespect to any professional standing on a driving range and teaching off a rubber mat but if golf is, if that's what it is, for a lot of people it's a 45 to 60 minute session hitting balls off a rubber mat, focusing on some elements of your swing, and it's never about the game of golf and how you learn the game of golf, how you learn to play the game of golf. Like Jesse was talking before about some of the good scores that he's been shooting, what came to my mind right there is Jesse can play. He can play the game, and I feel like a lot of people that are attempting to play the game. It just never gets beyond that. It's an attempt to play the game, but they never get to play the game, and that's sad, because it's a great game and people deserve to be able to play it better.
Speaker 2:I agree more with you, laurie. Jesse and I have had this discussion before and I said the current way that the game of golf is taught, that's a broken method. The only person it works for is the golf professional giving the lesson. What's not taught is the fact that it takes the brain about six weeks to make a new movement, more or less automatic, and that's after daily diligent practice. But hang on, the coach wants you to come once, even twice a week, doesn't give you drills that you can do in the comfort of your home. It doesn't make you accountable with regards to whether you do the practice or not. But golf lessons are sold in packages of 5, 10, 20, 100, depending on which part of the world you're in and where you're teaching.
Speaker 2:Strangely, where the game is taught cannot be more different from the field of play. We don't see this happen in swimming. We don't swim in a bathtub and then say, hey, okay, let's go to a real pool. That almost never happens. Soccer doesn't happen, baseball doesn't happen, tennis doesn't happen. Where you practice is the actual field of play.
Speaker 3:That's it Back in the early days, way back in the early days, a Scottish professional at a club was building golf clubs and starting fields and servicing the members and when a member did ask for a lesson, it was a case of the pro would go to his book and book the time in and they would go to the first tee and the pro would teach him how to play or her how to play. There was no driving range in those days. There's no such thing as a driving range. There was just a golf course outside the pro shop and you book in with the professional and he would take you around the golf course for X amount of holes and teach you the nuances of the game and the subtleties of the game and how to think when the bulls in certain positions and what kind of stroke works best. And that's how the game was presented to people and it's not presented like that now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, driving range is a commercial creation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know, fair enough, I totally get that. It's a good idea if you want to. You know, if you want to encourage golfers to practice balls and and you own one of those, you're probably going to be doing okay, but at the end of the day, that is not what golf is. That's not the game of golf. That's more like the game of swing, as we know, and there's a big difference between the game of swing and the game of golf, and we need to get people onto the golf courses and teach them how to play, because, jesse, you didn't get as good as you got at the game without learning the subtleties and nuances of the game, and whether someone was teaching you that or you figured it out for yourself. And, as you mentioned earlier, it's been quite a trial and error, as it always will be.
Speaker 3:It's just not that simple, but you figured out how to do it and that's not happening enough because, as you mentioned earlier on, the handicaps of golf is still very high. People are still shooting scores that are way, way too high and I don't know really whether people need to spend as much time as is often is often advertised for someone to become a better player. I think if you spent more time playing golf on the golf course, you'd soon learn how to play the game. But standing on a driving range where you're a long way from the game and then going on to the golf course with expectations, I think that's going to lead to some trouble. Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 2:You described in your book, your upcoming book Lorry environmental constraints.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, mean that's the greatest thing we have in golf is that the constraints in the environment forces to do things. That forces us to adapt. We have to learn a way, and if we don't know a way, we can then go back and ask someone who might know look, how should I deal with this situation? But until you actually face those challenges, those environmental constraints, you don't. And golf is all about that. It's all about your ability to interact with the environment and figure it out. Figure out how. Is it a pitch shot? Is it a pitch and run shot? Is it a lob shot? What kind of shot is it? And if you played for enough, if you're a player, you figure that out. You can weigh up your options pretty quickly, pick a pretty good option out of three, and it usually is close to what it needs to be, giving you a better result at the end of the day. But if you never get to that place where you learn to have those options, then you're missing so much of the game of golf, I think.
Speaker 1:I agree. Well, it's a big part of the joy, right guys, figuring things out in the golf course. We should write a book what Trackman Doesn't Teach you? That is similar to what they don't teach you at Harvard Business School. What Trackman doesn't teach you on the golf course and Justin talks about it a lot it's skill acquisition.
Speaker 1:How do we acquire that skill? Well, first of all, we can't do it on the driving range. You can't learn how to hit, you know, low, flat slices around a tree, or a high hook over a tree, or to hold it to a back right pin placement into a right to left win. How does that manifest in your hands? How does that manifest in your feet, things like that. So, not only the subtleties of skill acquisition, but just learning how to hit it out of a divot. How do you hit it out of a buried lie? I noticed that the guys and the gals out there, they don't freak out when they have weird lies on the golf course, whereas a lot of the average people do, and that's such a big part of the game. It's uneven, everything is uneven. Downhill lies, side hill lies, uphill lies, right to left, left to right, wins different course conditions, different bunker conditions, different rough conditions and that's part of the joy of playing the game is to learning how to adapt, as you said, in all of those different conditions. But, but, but. In my opinion, what's been lost is is is the joy and the passion behind learning, the joy and the passion behind learning. You can't. You can't learn the game of golf in a in a, in a linear, sterile left brain way. That's not what it's about. This is a holistic journey.
Speaker 1:I mean, I like to compare it. Hang on one second, justin. I've said this before, but I love comparing it to race car drivers. Race car drivers, as I understand them, they, they know exactly what's going on in the engine. They can build their engine, they are expert mechanics as well as world class drivers, but I don't think they're thinking about what's going on inside of the engine. When they're racing at Daytona OK, it's a completely different animal, but I look at it in a way that, hey, that's a good way to look at it they can't think, they can't afford to think what's going on under the hood. And then, when you're on the golf course, you can't afford to be thinking what's going on with your off swing. Yeah, you just can't do it and play the way that we all want to play in my opinion but you know, it is me being an amateur and you two being the professionals teaching on the other side.
Speaker 1:If I'm looking for a great coach, I'm looking for a coach to teach me these things. I would rather call up Justin or Laurie and say hey, how do I hit it out of a divot, how do I hit it over this tree? How can I? What do I do? Do I adjust it in my stance? Or you know sure you learn the basic rudiments of how to hit the shot, but having a conversation with a qualified coach to talk you through that process part of the skill acquisition.
Speaker 1:What's interesting, though, is that I think, in my opinion, that you do have to have some level of. You've got to myelinate your neural connections. You have to build something, okay, but what's not being taught is how to use what you built. How do you use it? You know sure we built you this great car. Well, how do you learn how to drive it? By getting in and driving it, but you can't be having too many left-brained thoughts around it. So there's in a perfect world, gents, is there a way that we can teach. You know, go inside the classroom and teach hey, you know, this is a good, this might be a good way for you to swing the golf club and then go out and learn how to trust what has been built or what's being built. And that's the second phase of learning is going out and actually learning how to play. That's how I would want to learn you personally, you know, that's how I would want to learn. You know, train and then trust. How do I learn how to trust it?
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the ultimate expression of talent right Learning how to trust it.
Speaker 2:When you talk about a traditional golf swing. I guess there are three phases. You show up on the tee just see how to diagnose your problem. That's probably the simplest part of the learning phase and then I will prescribe a solution slightly more difficult than diagnosing the problem. The third and the most difficult part of a golf lesson and this is where the really elite coaches are separated from the boys would be imparting or transferring that information to you mentally and physically. I think that's really where the good coaches really earn their keep and how. I see this from a very holistic view, like I don't try to shoebox people into oh Jesse, you got to do this bee string that I teach because one of my guys did it. He won. So everyone has to do the bee string and I think a lot of coaches even for those who are kind of burst in skill acquisition they only use one mental model for teaching, whereas I am of the view that there are more than just one way of learning.
Speaker 2:I like to hear your thoughts on that, Laurie. I know you've done a lot of work on this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. Could I suggest to both of you that? Like, if someone asks you about the game of golf, let's say they never played and you're going to introduce the game to them and you introduce it as a cross country game. So that's the first thing, it's a cross country game. And then you take a golf club and a ball and you play across country and it goes.
Speaker 3:And here's the thing about the game that you tell them right up front this is a high mistake game. So all the types of games you could play, this one, you will produce the highest amount of mistakes. So to get good at golf, you're going to make a lot of mistakes and then you're going to learn how to deal with making a lot of mistakes and over time you make less mistakes and over time you make less and less mistakes until you become a pretty effective golfer, because you're basically what's really evolved in the time that you've been playing cross country golf. You've just learned how to adapt to the environment and make less mistakes. Now, what if that was the way you presented the game to people? Guys, what do you think about that Cross country game? High amount of mistakes made. That's the game you're playing.
Speaker 2:Your job over time is to make less mistakes playing the game it's instantly going to free the person up because, hey, I'm allowed to make mistakes. Exactly, yeah, cross country game. But that's not how the game is currently taught. It's about perfection. Your swing plane, you see, it's off by half a degree, no good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're talking about a business model there. We talked a little bit earlier about business and the business model is guys are going to make a living and so they stand on a driving range, they pay for a space and they're contracted to say a range and they've got to generate business right so they can pay back to the club or to the owner of the range and pay their mortgage and do all those things. We totally get that. But we also get that people are not playing the game, they're playing swing, they're playing all sorts of things. They're paying for tech. Absolutely, there's a lot of tech involved in the game.
Speaker 3:There's nothing wrong with diagnostic tools to help to analyze situations. But there's a time and a place for it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like what you described those tools diagnostic tools. However, a lot of people think that they provide the solution that they are meant to teach you. I think if you look at Raider, all Raiders tell you weatherballs are tax bin trajectory and you use that feedback and then you start adjusting your string accordingly. But I think what most people do is that at least in the trackman parlance they try to zero out their golf swing. I don't believe Fred Tuckson meant his invention to do, and the really good golfers that I know who use these tools use it as a diagnostic tool.
Speaker 2:Okay, today I'm carrying my wedges 3% further. I'm just going to stick with it. That's it. I'm not going to mess around with those numbers. If your launch angle is lower than the so-called PGA per average, or higher, as the case may be, but you're still shooting decent scores for the time you put in and for your string, who's to say that your launch angle is wrong for you? Right? And I think what people don't understand about averages is that if you have a guy who is a six foot five and another guy who is five foot five, then is the average really six foot? Probably not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, interesting. So where do we go with it? If it's a cross country game, we will make a lot of mistakes, but most people don't know that. They get freaked out when they make mistakes, guys. So they're playing on the golf course, they're slicing at their riding double bogies down their cards or triple bogies, or not much at all, because they're so angry and disappointed. Has the game been sold the wrong way to them? Did they not get what they asked, or did they not know what they were buying?
Speaker 2:It's really the definition of the game Golf well, I shouldn't use. Unfortunately, golf is very different from a game like soccer or basketball, where higher score wins. Golf is the opposite Lower score actually wins the game. So in golf less is more, while in the other game more is more. And golf has to be sold as a game of technique, whereas, say, marathon or running, you just have to keep going harder and harder. But in golf if you try harder it may work counter to your actual goals. When you get in your own way, you try harder, that 10 yard slice or 20 yard slice becomes a 40 yard slice, that one inch fat shot becomes a three inch fat shot.
Speaker 2:And I think not enough is about the mental game. It's talked about in relation to golf, but how mental it can be, and not many coaches actually talk about using the tool correctly. All the teachers just hold the club and just make a string. But if you go down into the details of the street spot, there's the sixth line, the sixth group of the golf club, and I think if you start to explain that for the sixth group to touch the ball there must be some forward lean of the shaft, and how do we get that forward lean of the shaft. Well, number one, you don't use it as a spatula to lift the ball up in the air. You can't really use your wrist to move the club. Instead, it's a full body game and I think once you explain to the Fadinga offer that this is how you use your tool, this is what it feels like when you're using the tool. Currently, we might have a chance at getting this beginner to actually hit the ball in a semi-decent manner.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great, yeah, I think with what I mentioned earlier, gentlemen, I'd say that cross-country game, you make lots of mistakes. And the third thing that I would add that you explain to people is it's a game of impermanence. Impermanence is something that when you study Buddhism, you can learn pretty quickly about the temporary nature of things. So if you were to say to someone well, you're playing cross-country golf, it's always going to be different, it's never going to be the same. You're dealing with winds and different grasses, all the things that Jesse talked about, and you're going to make lots of mistakes by virtue of the fact that it's a very challenging environment. As you get more skilled up, you'll make less mistakes.
Speaker 3:But the third thing that works around, the psychological aspect of it, is the impermanence side, that nothing lasts. So if nothing lasts, you don't have to worry, because it's temporary. It doesn't mean you're going to carry it. Just because you hit you might start off with three bogies in a row doesn't mean you're going to have bogies for the rest of the round. If you actually approach it as a game of impermanence, that it is a temporary nature, that every time you play a golf shot it will be different, then how would that shape psychologically the way you view the game. So it's a high mistakes game, it's impermanent and it's cross-country. Now how are we looking at it?
Speaker 2:You're going to have a lot more fun because it's like learning to play softer. For the very first time you give two balls a ball. They're going to kick it to each other, cross-country. Someone's going to fall down. You don't sit there and cry, well, you pick yourself up and then run after the ball and while they're doing that, they're having a ball of the time. But golfers, they look like they're having an absolutely miserable time because no one has explained it to them like you just did, Laurie.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I think you can summarize it very much around that. I mean because golf courses. It doesn't matter what golf you're looking at and where Jesse's located some of the most magnificent golf courses in the world in your region, jesse but at the end of the day, it's all still about the same thing. It's just you've got a starting point and that hasn't changed about the game since the very beginning, when they stuck a stick in the ground on a sand hill way across the links and then they would hit shots across until they got to that stick. Nothing's changed about that.
Speaker 3:It's hitting across country. There's all sorts of things happening along the way, but it's changing all the time. It's not staying the same. The danger you have is when you start to package the game up into this perfection type thing where it's a repeating golf swing, which is a dangerous thing to say, because anyone that's been around the game for long enough would know that the golf swing doesn't repeat itself. It can look similar from shot to shot and from round to round, but it is definitely not the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because not every situation is the same. Sometimes you need a low cut, sometimes you need a high draw. Every one of these shots will create a different swing. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Jesse you mentioned earlier about just the up and down side of it. In the space of 15 seconds, you probably talked about probably 15 different conditions that you could face as a golfer when you're playing. That's what's not being taught at all. How do you side-heel lies In the balls above your feet and you've got to hit it across the hazard to the other side, and how to make solid contact on the clubface when the ball's above or below your feet, or you're one leg up in the air and one leg down, or you're hitting it along grass or a sandy lie, or it's at the back of a tree. What do you do from there? There's just no end of conditions and situations that you find yourself in. That's across country golf's all about.
Speaker 3:That's something that you've figured out. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, how you figured that out over the years. You've been playing the game for a long time but, as you've mentioned, you've had the best of days and the worst of days over a couple of days right. Then you figured out how to do that differently. I'd be really interested to know, as it relates to this playing the game, which is what you're doing different golf courses, different conditions, wind conditions, etc. What's your thoughts on that? For what it's worth.
Speaker 1:I think, laurie and Justin, that the biggest problem is that we're not being taught how to be adaptable as well, that this is a part of the game. That's the problem. I have a little bit of a problem with the range. My friend, bobby Schaefer, always says the range is a half lie. You need it and yet you don't Going out and playing. If you play the game long enough, especially competitively, you're going to face every situation. How do you do that? You actually have to come from a spirit of curiosity. If I were in the situation, what would I do? I threw up a couple of balls at my club the other day and up against a tree and, for whatever reason, I was waiting I hit about three or four shots left-handed. I'm going to come up with this. Sure, it's hacked. Two days later I'm playing in our men's game and I got that shot. I'm so glad that I did that. But curiosity is a big part of it. I think that's a problem. How do I do this? How can I do this? What happens if this happens? These are the questions that teacher and student should be conversing about. Once again, I'm not poo-pooing technique. Technique is very important, but I think, in terms of what's happening today with the technique, in my opinion, is knocking a lot of the inborn curiosity that we have. The game should be initiating and sparking curiosity. If I'm in this situation, what can I do? You're not in. The beautiful thing about this game. One of the allowances that I've made to myself is I don't know everything. I don't know everything. Sure, I've been playing this game for the majority of my life, but I don't know everything. How can I just continue to learn? This is a part of the process. It's so much of the game.
Speaker 1:I remember hearing a story about Lee Trevino back in the day, I think in the 70s, when he was playing on the tour and he was drinking before he quit drinking. He had a particularly long night the night before and he plays in a golf tour, a PGH tour event. The next day he hit three greens in regulation. Lee Trevino is arguably one of the best. I mean he's on my Mount Rush more of ball strikers and I'm sure, on most people's. He had three greens in regulation. Guess what? He shot 69. Reander didn't make a bogey. Every green he hit, he birdied. Why is that? Okay, because it wasn't his ball striking that day. I can tell you that he hit it like shit, but why is that? Because he probably said well, I'm just going to make it as fun as I possibly can and I'm going to get it up and down from everywhere. That's a part of the genius and something that we all have, I believe in, born Now.
Speaker 1:The practicality behind all this is when people who are listening right now. I would really encourage everybody to come from that spirit of curiosity. How can I learn how to hit that shot? How can I? How can I learn how to hit it out of a divot? How can I learn how to hit it out of a divot into a right to left one? How can I learn how to hit it into? You know, these are part of the nuances of the game that aren't being taught.
Speaker 1:And here's another thing too. I got a fun question for you teachers. Okay, I had somebody asked me this the other day, member at the club, and I thought it was a great question, and this is all falls within the genre of what we're talking about. He said hey, jesse, I was watching the telecast the other day and one of the commentators mentioned that said player had an extra gear.
Speaker 1:What does that mean, an extra gear. So I explained it to him. Well, you know, a lot of those guys have another 20 yards in the bag when they need it. Well, how do they do that? I thought that was a great question. How do they do that? That's a skill acquisition, in my opinion, to really everybody has that ability to have an extra gear. That you may. You might have to work toward it, but you know, that's the. These are nuances and subtleties of the game that are just being lost in the teaching and learning process. You're going to learn a hell of a lot more on the golf course and you're ever going to learn on the range, I'm going to tell. I tell people that all the time. Not that the range isn't important, it has its purpose. It has its purpose, but it's a small part of it and the bigger piece of the pie is actually learning how to play the game. How do you do that? By getting out and playing, playing with your friends, having a good time, maybe playing for a little, something, something and not be.
Speaker 1:Don't be afraid to ask questions. And and I think what's going on in today's landscape this is coming from a student perspective. Okay, so if I'm student and I'm, what's what I would want to learn most is how do I? How do I? What happens if I get in contention in my club championship or in a qualifier? And what happens if I find out that I'm leading? What do I do? What happens if I, if I'm one or two back? What do I do? These are conversations that are that need to happen.
Speaker 1:You know, what do I do if I'm going to break 80 for the first time, if I need to make par on the 18th hole to break 80, and I know it, you know I mean that we've all had those milestones where we've approached these great milestones that are mine. You know, for me it was the first time breaking 70. Like, I couldn't break 70 for the longest time and when I finally did it, I just remember having to bump up against that a few times and that's a part of the learning. And if I'm a student and I'm asking you guys these questions, the answers that I would want to hear is you know, this is all a part of the process. You're going to bump up against things that unfortunately or fortunately, depending on how you, how you think about it making mistakes is a part of the process. That is, from a student what I would want to hear and where I would.
Speaker 1:I would actually have a lot of relief If I had a coach tell me hey, jesse, so you three putt the last hole and you shot. You three putt it from 15 feet. You knew you had to make birdie on 18 and break 80, but you three putt it and you shot 81. Well, if you keep putting yourself in that position, eventually you're going to break through. For me, that would be more an encouragement or relief instead of well, okay, justin says to Jesse, let's go back into my lab and look at your putting on track man and figure out where you went wrong.
Speaker 1:That's the kind of lemons that's being taught to the golfing populace right now, in my opinion. And whereas, hey, you were a little excited, your brain was in hyperdrive, what are my friends going to think? Oh, my God, how many congratulations am I going to get in the bar at my club after I post a score? How, all of the external things, but nothing's being taught of. Hey, what kind of thoughts were you having? Let's get down to the root, as Justin says, a lot, get down to the root issue of it all.
Speaker 1:That, in my opinion, as a student is what's missing. We're just watering the leaves, boys. We're not getting down to the root of what is causing this tree to grow in one way or another. These mistakes are going to be manifested on the golf course. As a student, I would want to know, well, what are my mistakes showing me? What's the game telling me? The game's always talking to you, right? So, as a student, I would want the teacher to say what's the game telling you? Great teachers teach people how to teach themselves. Yeah, oh yeah, great teachers teach people how to teach themselves, okay.
Speaker 2:Bottom line. I told a student once if you keep coming back to me, just shows I've not done my job properly. Now, if you come back to me because you like my company, that's a different thing, Of course yeah. But if you can't fix your own problems, I've not done my job.
Speaker 1:I still find it very interesting and I don't, you know, when I brought this up in the past and people you know, jack Nicholas was an outlier. Jack Nicholas was born of Bodhisattva or whatever. He saw Jack Rout once a year, yeah, and I think, no, I don't think too many people are asking the why behind that. Okay, jack Nicholas arguably the greatest player of all time he saw his coach once a year. Yeah, he probably knew what to do if the views fell off. Teach people how to teach themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, yeah, he's self-reliance right.
Speaker 3:I mean back in the day, particularly Jack's generation. It was a you know, particularly in the United States a time of prosperity after the war, like born in 1940. So he's 10 years old when he starts playing the game 1950, good time in the United States. Yeah, he goes out there. He's good at a lot of sports, not just golf. So he's good at basketball, but he's a hyper competitive guy as well and he just figured out how to get that competitiveness and aim it in a direction, your great focus and all of those things. But he figured all those things out for himself.
Speaker 3:When you read anything about him, what he's written, he spent an enormous amount of time on the golf course. He had a lot of practice balls in wintertime. You know Quonset hut. He would hit balls out in there and leave those golf balls until the snow, you know, had melted away so he could pick them up. But he was playing golf in summertime round and round and round, and that's how you learn to play the game. Yeah, so he figured out how to play the game, playing the game, and that's what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:And I think it's also a function of the amount of money that was available back then. Compared to today, with the amount of money that these guys are playing for, it's easy to have your physical trainer, your mental coach, your student coach, your wife and your two dogs come along with you to every tour event. I think back then people really played golf professionally for the love of the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I agree with that, and they had to really learn the art of self-reliance. They didn't have all the bells and whistles back then. We didn't have the trackman's force plates, 3d imagery and all that good stuff, and I'm not putting any of that down.
Speaker 2:No, I do enjoy the swings of yesterday because it's not shaped by technology, it's shaped by personal feel and idiosyncrasies. The golf teaching methodology back then allowed for self-expression, whereas the methodology now it's based on science. Not that one is better than the other. I just feel that if you swing like yourself, then there's a way higher chance of it repeating under pressure. So I've seen some young budding professionals in Singapore golf swing overhaul but can't pull the trigger on the golf course because you're not playing with your swing. It's not yours and eventually you will be found out.
Speaker 3:I think you mentioned there earlier, when you set golf, the science side of it. It's fair to say, loosely based on science, because at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:None of them are biomechanists, so it's not like they've studied it and got a PhD in it. It's golf pros that are attending seminars and listening to biomechanists and people and talking about certain aspects of it and then applying that in the game. There's actually not a lot of books that have been written. To the best of my knowledge, there's a couple that are really focusing fully on the science of it. And if it's all about the science of it, what's it not? It's still not about the game and playing the game. So as much as you can get everything, get your ducks all lined up and be teaching your particular methodology and so on, at the end of the day, people aren't playing better and we know that to be the facts.
Speaker 1:And there will always be arguments.
Speaker 3:That's why I sit back in social media, particularly on Facebook. There are a lot of golf groups and I see them. Once someone posts some thread and you see people going at it like going at the jugular, and I just sit back and watch it, because it's entertainment more than anything, because it's not going to go anywhere. No one's yet to a place where someone wins the battle. It will just evaporate or die out or the thread will move in a different direction, and that's the nature of the business we're dealing with right now. It's just one person's camp versus another.
Speaker 3:It's like which side of the fence he on? It's a bit like forgive me, I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but whenever I see politics in the US, Jesse, it's always left versus right, and I don't even know what left versus right means. But I hear you know I watch a lot of stuff on YouTube at night before I go to bed and I quite often see someone talking about the left or talking about the right and it's like such a common thing. It's like it flows Well. Golf's a lot like that for a lot of people as well. You're either this side of it or you're that side of it. Oh yeah, but is that where you need to be?
Speaker 2:No Funny you mentioned this, laurie, jesse and I had this conversation just last week. Like we don't see things in black and white, we see things in more like 50 shades of green.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it, yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:Go left. And here's once you start identifying with something, and especially if the ego gets in and wants to attach and identify a certain modality or whatever For example, all the golf machine guys or the more ad guys or whatever, and they have the most people on tour and whatnot I think that once an individual identifies themselves with a particular modality or thought or anything like that, they're in a real dangerous place to not learn some of the important lessons that they need to learn. Identification is very dangerous and I want people to contemplate that. You never know what you can learn and from who especially.
Speaker 1:But one of the things I thought that was very interesting you guys were talking about as far as the players from yesteryear and the art of self-reliance, is that the players from yesteryear figured a lot of things out with their hands. And if you believe in the homunculus theory that your hands, the sensory in your hands, occupies the most space in your brain, Well, here's a question that I have for you guys. I'm going to take a little bit of a different route here. Why is modern instruction aimed to take the hands out of the golf swing? If you've got these things right here, Camel, not my hands in front of the screen that occupy the most space in your brain as far as sensory and feeling and touching and the degree of temperatures and whatnot, and people are saying that they're trying to take the hands out of the game. Why is that?
Speaker 2:I am fond of using that phrase. Don't use your hands.
Speaker 2:And it's not lit. I don't literally mean don't use your hands. I normally tell that to students who use their wrists improperly to move the club there, instead of matching the motion of the wrist along with the rotation of the body. But I do hear where you're coming from, jesse, where you're like, oh OK for these touch-shot, but then just use your body to rock. I mean, if you went to a surgeon, or rather if I was your dentist and I told you, jesse, hear the pliers in my hands, I'm going to use the big muscles to remove your tooth. Are you going to come back to me again? I'm going to use the big muscles to stitch up this wound in your body.
Speaker 2:I think I'll be sued for malpractice. So I think. So this is where I've learned a ton from Laurie communication. Communication is so important and I think it's probably the most important tool in the toolbox of a coach. You may not know many different string patterns, but if you can communicate what little, I think you might be further ahead than the guy who's got 10, 15 different string patterns but can't communicate it properly.
Speaker 3:Surely you know you guys would be familiar with Bob Tuske and Jim Flick, and in the 70s.
Speaker 3:you know they were running golf digest schools and so on and they published some pretty good material and they were both advocates of hands and using hands and golf swings and feeling the club had closing more to hit the ball more right to left, or feeling the hands ahead of the club face for longer to keep the ball down under the breeze or to feel like you're releasing the club more under the hands to get the club to add a loft to the club, to get it high in the sky or to feel more sliced face. So not that long ago golf teachers were publishing content on that. Jesse, I'm sure you're familiar with that.
Speaker 3:anyway that because those two gentlemen are very well known in the game and very revered for their knowledge and experience in the game and the teaching abilities. But you're right, we don't hear a lot about it now and you know when you're playing the game those countries I've mentioned and you're getting all sorts of lies. You have to have that ability to feel where the club it is and to understand what you want the club head to do as it strikes the golf ball, to be able to produce the types of results. Now there'll be two ways you can do that. You can be taught shots or you could go out there on the golf course and figure it out for yourself, like you said, jesse, about figuring out how to play a left handed shot, and then you happen to get one.
Speaker 3:In fact, in our program in Jakarta our kids on a Sunday we have a contest tournament that we run and we invariably have the ball put in all sorts of places.
Speaker 3:Those kids have to figure out how to get it on the green from the craziest places, and so it becomes this real creative exercise and you know, and I highly encourage that in them, I want them to.
Speaker 3:You know, we've got this big, tall hedge that's about 12 foot high and I want them to get behind that hedge and learn how to flip that ball up over the hedge and get it to land softly on the other side, where there's we've got a green and a pin, and to definitely use their hands and manipulate the club. Face in. What a fan of that school of golf and I don't you know, I don't necessarily agree with this take the hands out of the golf swing. I think we've always got to remind ourselves that a lot of what's being told is focused on people that are 0, 0, 0.1% of the golfing population, say the United States. That people that anybody that can shoot low 70s and break 70 are extraordinarily rare people. So you know, if you're modeling excellence off that model and then teaching it to the masses, I think you've got a major problem right there.
Speaker 2:I like the example that you gave Lori about finding their way out of trouble. And I'll bring you back to what you said right at the start of this interview. You said you learned stuff from the military. And again, just days before Jesse and I had this chat, if you and I were to sign up for not our age, obviously, if we went to Navy SEALS selection school, these guys will drown, prove you, they will expose you to potential hazards, danger and teach you to find a way out of it. What they do not do is tell you hey, there's trouble there, let's hope you don't get into trouble.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the approach that a lot of golfers think oh, I hope I don't get into a divot, I hope I don't get into a plug line, whereas your approach very closely mimics the approach of the elite special forces of the world. Let's identify the potential troubles you can get into and let me teach you a way out of it, and acceptance mindset versus an avoidance mindset. And then you also talk about teaching your players. So I like to say that some things can be taught, but some things must be caught. And you can only catch the feelings of certain things when you expose yourself to those environments, to those situations.
Speaker 1:That's well said, justin. What's very well said. In fact, I encourage people with that very phenomenon. People ask me what's the fastest pathway to better? And I tell them to go play in a golf tournament. Oh, you're going to learn more about yourself playing in one round than any other way, in my opinion. You'll play in your club championship, whatever it is, and the game will tell you what you need to work on Period. That's the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you know whether you can hold up under pressure. And then you'll find out whether whatever you've practiced actually translates that's right In the real arena of play. That's the only way to find out. And if you, gentlemen, have engaged in martial arts before, that's the same. We don't need to debate about whose technique is better. We only need to spar to find out. Yeah, if you think your crane style is better than my Tiger's, well, it's only one way to find out. Let's get in the ring, man.
Speaker 3:That's it, yeah, so ultimately it gets down to how the golfer is shaped by the conditions that they face.
Speaker 3:So that's what constraints learning is all about Right Constraints. Learning theory is all about the conditions of the environment and how they shape the golfer to adapt to those conditions in order to perform closer to their potential. So if you design your environments that way, so if you put a golfer let's say it's short game and you've got 10 balls in 10 different locations around the green, so the goal has to play 10 different golf shots and you give them a 7-9. And I'm talking a bunker shot and shots over the bunker and out of the rough, but you give them one club, they'll figure out pretty quickly how to manipulate that golf club. So if it was a circuit and there are 10 balls around a green and they went and did that circuit 10 times over 10 days, by day 10, playing the same golf club from 10 different locations around the green, and they get to do it 10 times, they'll figure out things they couldn't do in round one but they'll definitely be able to do in round 10. And I think that's what's missing from the game, right there?
Speaker 1:I agree, I mean just by you saying that, Laurie, I can imagine myself doing that in the fun, in the joy behind that.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, jesse. It's a ton of fun to do things like that, particularly seven or six or someone of your ability. Maybe you take a five-iron after and do it. You have to slice a ball over a bunker and land it on the green like a flop shot, or play a bunker shot with a five-iron or get it out of the long rough or bounce it up onto the green or any number of different things. Well, I know in our program that's one of the things that we constantly work on that the kids become so used to being exposed to challenge and then having to figure out for themselves how to figure out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1:And then, if they come up and ask me, my advice, which they will often do.
Speaker 3:I'll give them options so you could do it this way, this way or this way. Try them, find which one works best for you. But I don't want to tell them what to do, so I don't do that. I let them figure it out for themselves and then, if they get stumped, they can come up and ask me and I can give them some ideas. And I won't necessarily give them the answer. I'll lead them to them finding the answer for themselves. But that's all the stuff. We need more of that.
Speaker 1:There was a reporter Hang on, I'm going to say this real quick, just to add to what Laurie said. There was a reporter that asked Tiger what he thought his greatest attribute to his game was or is, and he said it was his creativity. His ability to be creative was his superpower, or is his superpower?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I think we've all seen that so many times and in so many ways. Jesse like the shots he's pulled off in so many different places, whether it's around the green or even putting on the green and his ability to read a tricky part, or he's cutting a shot into the green or he's playing a left-handed shot. He's got one leg in the bunker and one leg out of the bunker and all of those things. We've watched enough of Tiger to know that for him to be able to do that on television, you think how many times he's practiced that way to be able to pull it off. When he has to pull it off, that stuff comes from hours and hours and hours of figuring it out, digging it out of the dirt, as the guy once said.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to make a comment, justin, that I want to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1:One of the biggest things, coming from a student perspective again, is this fun, Like you know, learning. You're going to learn a lot faster and you're going to learn a lot better if you find joy or find the fun in it. You know hitting those different shots, trying to lob shots over trees, trying to figure out how to hit low slices around trees or anything that we've talked about. There's a lot of fun in that. There's a lot of fun in learning. And also, too, we've kind of lost our way where we it's funny to make mistakes. We laugh at people when they trip over their shoestrings, but the whole world's going to hell in a hand basket if you three putt, I mean you know. Another thing, too, is we shouldn't take ourselves to the serious life. This is a game of mistakes. This truly is a game of mistakes. You're going to make mistakes. The best players in the world make mistakes. It's very rare where they hit every fairway and every green and around. Very rare, I mean. I'm sure you can ask the best players in the world, that you can ask one of the one of the great ball strikers right now Scotty Shuffler. Hey bro, how many times do you hit every fairway and every green? I think he's leading ball striking on the tour by a mile and I don't know. He probably would tell you a handful of times, maybe a year. Best ball striker on the planet, technically, yeah, yeah. So you know, once again getting out of the spirit of perfection and getting more into a spirit of, hey, we're going to make mistakes. That's a part of it, that's a part of the game. So where could? What can we learn? How can we find the joy in all of that? And how can we use that information to get better, to acquire skill, to learn about ourselves and to get better? It's the opposite right now, and I don't think it's anybody's fault, it's just kind of the state of the industry, and I hope that there's a shift. I hope there's a paradigm shift here in the near future.
Speaker 1:And in one comment I'm going to make before Justin takes the floor here, the great thing about the players of yesteryear is they were really colorful, had a lot of great personalities and boy, they played the golf. They played the game of golf differently. We're such a different way that Gary player played versus I don't know one of the great characters back in the day, like a Huber Green or something. There's just so many different characters and different ways to play and different personalities and I think a lot of that's been subdued, unfortunately, because we are coming from a spirit of perfection. We're going to Justin's lab and get my numbers on Trackman all fired up and zeroed out and everything perfect, and then go out on the golf course and have those you know really those unrealistic expectations of hitting the ball according to how you hit it in the Trackman lab. It's just until Trackman leg figures out how to change the topography and different soil and different grasses within that room and different winds and rain and humidity and high altitude and low altitude.
Speaker 1:That's just a small percentage of it and one of the great things that all the guys and the girls do out there who do play this game for a living and the reason why I'm bringing it up and this doesn't is not so much said on the telecasts or is really talked about is they are the fastest adapting organisms they can. If somebody's playing well, they can win in the desert and then they can win the next week in Hawaii in a humid tropical environment. I mean I can't think of two different circumstances or situations or environments. Somebody can win at 7000 feet and then somebody can go win the Death Valley Open. Those people out there are the fastest adapting creatures out there and that's a part. That's a massive part of the game is how is your adaptability? But the only way to do that is to go out and train different parts of the adaptability and talking about this model, throwing balls down in different spots, learning how to get the ball up and down, creative, being creative, and also, what do you do if you're not hitting it very good? We don't hit it that. We don't hit it that good all the time.
Speaker 1:That's one big misconception that I hear all the time from my buddies that that are average to 15 to 20 handicappers Like they just have this image of good players, just never missing a shot. They're just gods. They hit everything on the center of the face, they hit everything down the middle and on the green and that's BS. All you got to do is watch. I mean, I tell people, if you really want to learn from somebody out there right now I don't care what tour it is, I'm not getting involved in that debate Watch the way Cam Smith plays. I think he's a very special man out there, plays with a lot of creativity, he doesn't get too high or too low, he has a very you know what Mo at least my perception is what Mo Norman would say an alert attitude of indifference. Doesn't really get too down if he hits a bad shot, doesn't really get too up when he hits a good shot, just has this real level of calm.
Speaker 1:You know Jane's story says would say relax, concentration and in a perfect world, as a student, that's what I would like to hear commentators talk about versus swing. It's so swing oriented, everything is so swing oriented and it's not allowing the general golfing populace to really explore because they don't know. They don't know any better, we don't know any better we. We assume falsely that somebody who's talking on TV or somebody who writes an article on golf digest that they are the eminent expert, they know everything. So what they say is one of the commandments in the Gulf Bible and it could be one of the commandments for 5% of the people, but how about the rest of us? So I think that until people really start to question how they are learning, we're just going to keep perpetuating the cycle and it's really part of the reason of the inspiration behind the podcast and doing what I do and Justin and I do and what we do, to really open up and explore these different possibilities and to say, hey, wait a minute here.
Speaker 1:You know, the range is full of a lot of really good golf swings. It really is. I see a lot of good golf swings on the range, even from people that are 10, 12, 20 anti-cats. They hit it pretty good on the range, but when they get on the golf course, man, it's a completely different animal and you know, in a perfect world I would say, well, how do we, what can we do to take that to the golf course? I mean, you know me as a student. That's what I would want to learn. Okay, guys, you spent your entire life learning how to teach this game. You learn it. You know it on a level that I don't know. Okay, awesome.
Speaker 1:My question to you is how do I take my range game to the first tee? How do I take, how can I be observant enough to figure out what I need to work on and to actively seek that when people are seeking Because people do seek, there's a lot of people I get a lot of messages, guys, for people. Oh, I was watching so-and-so the other day on YouTube and he said to do this. Or I was watching, you know, this lady on Instagram and she said to feel like keeping your butt up against a wall is the pathway to better ball striking. And both are right, but for who? So it's up to the individual to really figure that out, and I think that, in the space where it is today, we, being in this space, should be promoting people to, or helping people to learn how to ask the right questions, and not be seduced by what's being set on TV or being perpetuated in the major golf periodicals. You know ranting right now, justin, sorry.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to say that I've never seen a golf pro who knew all his trackman numbers or foresight numbers in a golf tournament.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, there you go right there. Justin, you just dropped the mic. That bear is repeating. Can you repeat that one more time?
Speaker 2:I said I've never seen a golf pro who knew his trackman or foresight numbers in a golf tournament, yet to meet this guy who can quote it like the Bible and say, hey, by the way, I want my FedEx, the FedEx Cup or the Masters or the US Open, as the case maybe Oftentimes I have 24, 18 handicappers who know how to use trackman better than myself or foresight, but that doesn't guarantee success on the golf course. And you mentioned also the state of coaching, laurie, and we probably want to end with this and tee up another session. You mentioned that golf coaching today is very prescriptive Do this, do that and it doesn't empower the golfer to go on this quest to self discover. And I think if we empower golfers to self discover, they would have a much more enjoyable time and less enjoyable time exploring the game, exploring themselves, and spend less time berating themselves. Because why play a game? There you go.
Speaker 2:The word play connoisseur enjoyment when it's all about, oh, not doing enough. I should have been this. I should have been that You're always striving for something that is probably out of your reach at this current skill level, and I think it's high time that the coaching approach of teachers change if we want to grow this game and increase the number of participants, because it is only by increasing the number of participants that golf coaches can actually remain in business. Now I mean, why go through this whole rigor, pain of learning the golfing when it's so difficult, when I could have more, more fun time when I swim with my kids or playing the playground with my dogs?
Speaker 3:That's a question that I wonder. At the golf conferences, when all the professionals get there and discuss the game, invariably a lot of people are going to come up with what's new and what's exciting in the world of golf and how it's going to help people play better, but I emphasize this word, playing. That's not happening. We've got people struggling but not playing. When they learn that you can struggle and struggle is fine, be happy with the struggle, play and struggle, because you know it's a game of struggle. It's not a surprise for you.
Speaker 3:I didn't realize it was going to be this hard, because someone has gone out of their way to tell you that that's the game you've decided to play. When you chose to choose golf, apart from tennis or anything else, someone actually enlightened you about what the nature of the game is, and that's not happening enough. It's just going straight into a studio, into a lab if you will, and getting plugged in, getting numbers and then improving the technique, getting out on the golf course and getting all those funny sorts of lies that you get and not knowing it, being absolutely clueless about what to do, and then, if you get enough of that feeling that you're inadequate, well, after a while you're going to walk away from the game because it's too hard to play, and that would be the saddest thing in the world. We do lose too many people, and I think we lose too many people because they're not being prepared for the journey ahead of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's well said.
Speaker 2:You know, you mentioned, Laurie, that you're one of the few instructors that sit on the edge. A lot of people might ask why sit on the edge, Laurie? I think the more appropriate question is this why are there not more coaches who are sitting on the edge, just like you? Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I really can't answer that. I just know for myself that when I see people arguing and calling one another out on things that they know or they don't know, I wonder what it's all about. I think we're missing the point. And then it becomes too focused on them and whether they're right or not and, as Jesse had said earlier on, it's not whether we're right or not, it's literally what we're doing is we're all learning how to be better at what we're doing. And by standing there and saying that you've got the best methodology and because you coach the most players on tour or whatever, I think that it does not relate one bit to the person who plays the game, who pays for the game. The fact that the pros can be on tour is because of all those millions of people who buy sets of golf clubs that are marketed to, and that's where the game is right. There. That's the heartbeat of the game, it's not the pro tour, and those are the people I have to be looked after.
Speaker 3:So when they enter the game of golf and they decide that that's what they would like to do, it is our duty, our responsibility to lead them by the hand on that journey, teach them how to play, teach them to understand that it's a game, it's a great challenge but it is not a greater challenge, and that they should just learn to understand that it'll never be anything different to what it was at the beginning. It's always been about playing across country, getting the ball into the hole on the other side and learning the game as you go. That's the nature of the game. It hasn't changed about the game, so it doesn't matter about the technology. It doesn't matter that the PGA Tour players hit it 300 plus yards off the tee. It doesn't matter at any of that, because, at the end of the day, what really matters is the world revolves around the people who don't play it very well but would love to, and that's where we should be focusing our attention.
Speaker 2:And those words of wisdom and we can all listen. Find out more about you, laurie.
Speaker 3:Um well, I'm, you know, not easy to find out there.
Speaker 2:I have actually are not difficult to find. Just pop his name, Laurie Montague golf. You get golf instruction on YouTube.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that works you well. Yeah, I guess you could go. I've got, I've got some YouTube stuff there and but I don't know, visit very often, Um, but uh, I'm happy to. Um, anyone that reaches out wants to chat about golf.
Speaker 1:I'm always happy to help out your email on the episode, right, yeah, yeah, I'll make, I'll make sure all the ways to get ahold of Laurie and Justin is is, uh, is in the show notes and uh, gentlemen, I can't, I can't thank you enough for coming on, um, and enlightening the listeners with your, with your heart and wisdom, and, um, we're going to do this again. Laurie, it was a privilege to have you on my friend.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, jesse. Jesse just want to let you know that Laurie is going to be publishing his latest book, his what I feel is his magnum opus. It's called a strategic golf practice. I think we can arrange a another interview just prior to the release.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, that that's uh, I'd love that. I'd love to come back on and talk to both of you. It's, it's certainly been enlightening for me. Jesse, I love hearing you talk and talk about the game. Justin, always catch up with you. Um, I haven't seen you for a while, not since prior to COVID but uh, you know, I'm sure we'll bump into one another. Make that happen. Make that happen Better than later, but it's been an absolute pleasure to be on on on the show with both of you.