Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Hello and welcome to Flaghunters ! It is a privilege to bring to you this powerful insight into playing better Golf. In all my years of being in the game of Golf from competing at a high amateur level, to caddying, teaching, and being a overall Golf geek, I have an insatiable, curiosity driven desire to get down to the bottom of what it takes to truly get better playing the game of Golf that we all unconditionally love. This has been one of the greatest journeys of my life and I am deeply grateful for all that Golf has given me. Thank you for joining me in this incredible journey. This is my ever evolving love letter to Golf. Jesse Perryman P.S. Please Rate, Review and Subscribe !
Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Unveiling the Art of Golf Coaching: A Deep Dive with Hugh Marr and Justin Tang
Feel free to text me at (831)275-8804
Join myself and Justin Tang for an insightful dialogue with experienced golf coach, Hugh Marr, who hails from the beautiful landscapes of Scotland. We can promise you that this episode will offer a deep dive into the world of golf coaching, peppered with wisdom from Hugh's work with tour players and his mentors like David Ledbetter and Jim McLean. Prepare yourself for an engaging discussion on the essentiality of continuous learning in coaching and the significant impact of the environment on a golfer's game.
We delve into the art and science behind golf coaching, exploring the critical role of faith and the importance of perpetual improvement. The conversation takes an intriguing turn as we unravel the differences between a system and a model in golf coaching. Wondering why some coaches favor a one-size-fits-all approach over a tailored one? Hugh Marr's insights into this question will certainly give you food for thought.
Our discussion evolves as we illuminate the concept of a spectrum system in golf coaching, highlighting the importance of understanding different components to create effective change in a player's swing. Hugh shares his unique approach to introducing variable challenges in golf coaching, emphasizing the critical role of a robust analysis and diagnosis process. So, buckle up, and get ready for an episode brimming with valuable nuggets of wisdom for golf enthusiasts and aspiring coaches alike. With Hugh Marr as our guide, this journey promises to be as fascinating as it is enlightening.
You can find Hugh at www.hughmarr.com. You can find myself and Justin easiest on Instagram. Justin is @elitegolfswing and Jesse @flaghuntersgolfpod.
Hello, this is Jesse Perryman of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast, bringing you another podcast for this week along and on behalf of my co-host, Justin Tang, and myself. This week we welcome in a coach that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. His name is Huemar Huemarcom Huemarpreformancecom, and Hu is one of those great coaches in the UK. Originally from Scotland, he's worked with a bunch of tour players over there and all that. But the one thing that really impresses me about Hu and along with Justin and Justin and I talk about this all the time is that great coaching and great coaches never stop learning. They never stop seeking additional knowledge to add to their toolbox. You never know what kind of a student you're going to come across that might want to be taught in a simple way, and it's up to the coach to decipher that and to present the information in a simple way so that the student can take that in and have it become part of their swing DNA. Whatever it is they're trying to test, whatever it is they're trying to change, excuse me and Hu exemplifies that spade, Somebody who has learned from great coaches the world alike. He was influenced by David Ledbetter, as we all were, and also Jim McClain. For those of us who grew up playing golf in the 80s and the 90s, those were two big pillars from the teaching aspect that we learned from, and a lot of the coaches that are about my age use those as foundational pieces, along with the great book that a lot of coaches will continue to reference, and that's the golfing machine, and from the golf machine spawned Morad from Macro Grady's research and development, and then the offshoot of that is Stack and Tilt. So all of these great literary things that great coaches have learned from are being exemplified now and Hu Ma really exemplifies that and one of my favorite parts of the conversation he goes in and talks about learning from George Gankus, and here's a guy that really doesn't need to learn anymore. He certainly has plenty in his toolbox but owes a sense to the general golfing populace to give them what they need and to give them the tools to get better.
Speaker 1:And I really enjoyed talking to Hu. I really enjoyed the back and forth between Hu and Justin in this podcast and go to huemardcom to find out more. He's also on Instagram. You can find me on Instagram at Flyhunters Golf Pod all one word. You can find Justin at Elite Golf Swing also on Instagram easiest. And then Hu, you can reach him at huemardcom and you can reach him also on Instagram. All one word Hu Ma coaching H-U-H-U-G-H-M-A-R-R coaching All one word on Instagram.
Speaker 1:So I want to give a big thanks to Hu for coming on and I know he's incredibly busy and I think that you, the listener, are going to enjoy hearing from a master instructor and what he has to say about the state of coaching and how to coach better and, more importantly, you'll get a sense of what questions to ask next time you're seeking out a teacher, a good coach. And also, too, you can also go to any of my backlogs. I've got a ton of them on there. But, Hu Ma, thanks for coming on, pal, I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time and your energy. That's giving back to the game and also to truly help grow the game via the instructional landscape. So, once again, I always forget to do this, but please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast, and you can find it on Apple and all the directories under one word, same as my Instagram Flag Hunters Golf Pod.
Speaker 1:All one word have a great week, everyone and keep him, keep him, keep him hitting him straight and keep working on it. You never know when your time's going to come. But truly, whatever methodology you use and whatever teachers that you follow, you have to put in the work, and sometimes that work is going to take time. You just have to keep at it and keep going and don't hesitate or be afraid to reach out to me. And also don't hesitate or be afraid to reach out to your coach and ask here her the questions that you have, and that's what they were there for and that's what we're all here for to help learn and grow the game and to get better playing the game that we love. So cheers everyone and have a great week. Hello, this is Jesse Perry, one of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast, along with my co-host, Justin Tang, from the Tanamera Golf Club in Singapore. We have Hugh Maher on today and Hugh Maher, Hugh Maher Golf Coach, Extraordinaire High Performance Coach, humorcom. Hugh, thanks for coming on the show, pal. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:My pleasure Nice to be with you guys. Thanks again for coming on. Coach, Can you just let us know a little bit about yourself, give us some background, how you got in the game and what you're doing right now?
Speaker 3:Well, basically I just got into the game. We still have a voltage in the far north of Scotland where basically when you're a 14-year-old boy there's not a whole lot to do in those little golf course. So I just started playing golf there with my grandmother's old clubs, with Hickory. I just fell in love with it straight away. I knew pretty quickly that I wanted to make golf in some way in my career. I didn't know whether I was going to be good enough to play, but even in those very early years I was already very into the technique of the game, playing better golf.
Speaker 3:I was reading tons of books, magazines, whatever before the days of the internet and TurnPro.
Speaker 3:I guess about 18-19 years old, like all guys of my generation, thought I was kind of a chance of making it as a player, which was certainly not the case.
Speaker 3:But deep down I think I always knew I wanted to coach and I was very lucky. I worked at a couple of fantastic clubs which gave me a great grounding for what I do now, and started coaching full-time at 26 years old and got good enough or lucky enough to coach on tour for a number of years, working all over the world with the best players in the world, which is obviously a privilege, and I guess COVID kind of got in the way because it made travel impossible. I wasn't really enjoying the travel, I wasn't enjoying being on tour at that point and then the kind of coach education business exploded and that's something that I got into during COVID and that's something that I basically that's now my if you like, my day job. So my job is to coach the coaches to make golfers better. That's simple, awesome and growing the game. So the most important thing is to make this game better for all and get more people involved Exactly.
Speaker 2:So when you started playing the game of golf at the age of 14, were you self-taught or did you have a coach to guide you?
Speaker 3:along the way. No, I was self-taught, I think I mean I had a couple of golf lessons, but I don't think that I would. I didn't have a coach until I turned professional. I didn't have someone that I saw on a regular basis, and even then it was only probably only half a dozen lessons a year. So I definitely was not coached, certainly not coached in the way we know now.
Speaker 2:So when you were learning the game, did you learn it on the driving range or on the golf course?
Speaker 3:Both. I was very lucky in the club that I was a member of. It was generally quite quiet during the week, so I could get access to the golf course whenever I wanted, but I also had a huge practice ground.
Speaker 3:You hit your own balls, you picked your own balls and it had a couple of short-grain game greens that had a kind of perfect area for wedge play. It was for my purpose at the time. It was absolutely perfect, and probably the only thing that I really lack to the time was good advice to help me get better. But then I'm not sure I would have. It wouldn't have made me in any better player.
Speaker 3:I don't think you think there was an advantage to self-discovery as opposed to being shoeboxed into a particular model 100% and I was very good at that from a from a short-game perspective, not so good from a long-game perspective, but even just the simple things that I was always hitting off grass, I could change my target all the time Because I was hitting my own balls. It then put a kind of it puts me in a slightly pressurized situation where it was a whole lot easier to pick them up if you hit them all close together to one another, and I would just set up little games where I'd stick my shag bag in the middle of the range and if I hit one ball out with certain parameters, I'd go and pick them all up and start again. So I was able to definitely learn more about how to practice without necessarily thinking about technique. But then the flip side of it was that my technique never really got to a place that was good enough to play at a top level. So you're saying that you were shaped by your environment.
Speaker 2:The very fact that you had to hit off grass forced you to make proper contact. Then the fact that you had to pick up your own range balls forced you to learn how to control the club.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I was lucky in that both of the assistant pros of the club were very, very good players at the time. There was a couple of other Scotland internationals who were members there and I was always the worst player in the group, so I was always kind of challenged to improve. I think everyone to an extent is shaped by their environment. If you grew up on a very short type golf course, I think your golf game is going to look very different to a long, wide golf course, because as human beings we exist at the top of the food chain because of our ability to adapt to environment and it's something that's very neglected, I think, in the game, in modern day coaching and modern day practice, is the understanding of how much the environment can shape that individual.
Speaker 2:And I think a case can be made that we have more commercial driving ranges than we ever had in the history of the game. Do you think that that has affected the ability of golfers to progress in some way? I'm speaking of golfers as a general population, because when you talk about playing soccer or swimming, the practice arena is not very different from the arena of actual play, whereas in golf it could not be more different.
Speaker 3:That's a good question because I think there are a number more issues at play there, in that driving ranges by their very nature are not the same as playing the game of golf. We know that and there's sometimes a conflict between what players want and what coaches perceive they want. And for me, I was always about shooting the lowest possible score. Still when I play golf a lot and it's still my biggest drivers shooting the lowest possible score. So I want to be sure that if I am practicing, I'm practicing stuff that's gonna impact my score. Obviously the driving range doesn't provide that and if you look at the coaching business model globally, it's basically done by time to half hour, an hour, two hours and getting out in golf course for half an hour is impossible. I'm, getting out for an hour is impossible. Getting out for two hours becomes a little bit possible. But I think coaches just get very comfortable being in their environment on a range and don't really get out of that comfort zone.
Speaker 3:I actually see a plate with a good example of that with a friend of mine who I've coached for fifteen years yesterday and is pitching and short game just for a car and something we rarely touch upon in sessions, and I know that basically I could save them four shots of the, the ability to do a very basic pitch. So it's always told me, is short games good. So you, you have to guide it by what the player wants to do. I want to put your golf swing. Do they want to get better shots? So do they want to fewer shots? And each individual is different motivators. There are some people just want to look good in instagram. It's still, I think, because the handicap system exists. I still think the vast majority would like to have a better.
Speaker 2:Who would you consider to be your mentor in terms of coaching the game?
Speaker 3:in terms of coaching. I've been very lucky, spent time with Dennis, is a close friend and has been a long term mentor. Mine, jim christine we ran the training program in the UK's been a long term mentor. I was influenced by guys like jim mcclain and, let better, specifically David, because ultimately he made it okay to coach golf for a little. Jim. I really like the way jim works because he he created system structure and I'll be, it wasn't proper scientific research, it was based on thoroughly research principles and so they were both very influential in what I do. But I'll honestly, when people ask me this question, single biggest influence has been the players I coach, because I've always had this thing where I've got to improve that player and if I don't have the knowledge to improve that player, I'd better go find it out, otherwise I'm in trouble. So they think that I'm influenced more by players than than anything, and that's not. We're not talking the world's best players were talking, a player of any standard, because if I can't help them, then I failed.
Speaker 2:Let's talk a little bit about a trip that you made last year to the US. It basically and underline the kind of coach that you are, that you're always on the cold face, not afraid to ask questions and learn new things just give us, give us a taste of what happened on the epic trip.
Speaker 3:Well, I have always been intrigued by what george gankers has to say and I love taking golf lessons. I take lessons basically wherever I can from whoever I can, and what's that? You know, I'm gonna go see george and see what he has to say, spend probably two or three hours with me just a great time. I thoroughly enjoy being I am. His principles are incredibly sound. I let it. When I arrived not at any point did he tell me that I just need to stand there and balls to get it right. He played the next day and it great.
Speaker 3:I'm the thing that struck me about george, which I see in all good golf coaches he's incredibly passionate. He genuinely cares about the person in front of him and, like most good coaches, that their principles, the preferences, all started somewhere and george is taking those, those set of principles that he started with the believes in, and he's refined them and made them his own, and that, to me, is that that pretty much defines a great golf coach. From I'm, he knows that what he advocates works and there's not any fluff, it's just you gotta do that. It was. It was a great experience and I'm lucky I get to see I don't know what you're doing on a yearly basis and it makes my coaching better a lot of the time. It makes my golf better and it gives me a much bigger set of tools for when I am dealing with, when I'm at the kitchen.
Speaker 2:Talk about why are some coaches so in them with the ticket model?
Speaker 3:Number one. I think a lot of coaches think it's easy way to become constant, which, to a degree, the right you've got to understand something there's definitely a social media generation is definitely influence that, because not only do they want to sound or appear knowledgeable with great understanding, they also want the swings they post to look good. Am I gonna post a shitty looking golf swing? Of course I'm not, but it's. For me, it's more driven by the coaches ego than it is their desire to make players better, and we all have an ego of some kind. My ego is driven by making players better. It's not driven by knowing more than the next person, is not driven by putting sexier instagram posts up. It's my goes Is satisfied purely by making players better. When I walk away from a session, players have more, much better shots like yeah, I know what I'm doing and that makes me feel good, makes them feel good, but it's not driven necessarily by a need to here to be the expert in the room you missed out the fourth point.
Speaker 2:The fourth point is that there's so little coaches like yourself with such a fundamental depth of knowledge, willing to share the information with guys like myself that's.
Speaker 3:But then again, that falls down to the ego side, doesn't? I'm not. I'll happily give away all my knowledge and you have?
Speaker 3:yeah, because I know that. It's actually not the knowledge that's that important. It's the ability to turn that knowledge into better golf. And I know that I am In complete. I completely own the knowledge I have. I understand the knowledge I have and because of that I'm able to pick the right pieces of knowledge to help each and every player. I you could give another coach everything I've got and they wouldn't be any good. Likewise, I could take what they've got and I wouldn't be any good. So it's the knowledge is irrelevant. I mean, we know more, we understand more about golf, swing and mechanics and physiology and etc. Etc.
Speaker 2:But it's still the person who's responsible for coaching that and skills, the coaching skills they have to make the difference can we discuss a little bit on the difference between a system and a model, and then we'll talk a little bit about one of my favorite systems that has been misunderstood to be a model.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So assistant for me is about how you distribute your knowledge, is coach and doing it in a very structured, organized manner so that you get you basically see gradual improvement. You put the right bits in place at the right time. A system is there to help you analyze the player, to diagnose the player properly. The system is there to ensure that you give them the right piece of advice you take the right to from your toky. That's a system, it's a coaching tool. Now you can also systems from a perspective, mobile golf swing.
Speaker 3:I think there's a big difference between a model and a method, because I think that I definitely have a model golf swing in mind of what I, what I think the good looking golf swing looks like or a high functioning what's like. But I would say it's very much my principles and preferences. Where's a method? Golf swing is just do this. And the problem the method golf swing is that it will make some players way better. And I'll make the rest of my words Because we are all build different, process differently, we move differently, we think differently.
Speaker 3:The sum this human beings are by by nature unique systems. Definitely from a coaching perspective, I think it's crucial in the major, the vast majority. What any kind of system? That systems they are not just to help you get better coaching advice. That systems there to help identify where your blind spots are. A model golf swing as well, if I'm. What about the model golf swing? It's real, it's a bit of a pie in the sky thing because so people are ever going to adhere to that model. And then it's a coach. You have to decide where you can compromise and I think I goes as far as identifying a model golf swing for each individual coach. Again, by definition, if you got one guy who's short and fat wants to draw it versus a very tall, slim guy wants to pay, you gonna have to have different models for those players where some method system would drive players into the same box, regardless of the components that we've talked about.
Speaker 2:So basically it's a one size fits all, cookie cutter approach versus a customized approach where you go okay, we're trying to fit these principles into this golfers swing, but I'm cognizant of the fact is, lanky, is Narrow shoulders than mr a over there with shorter arms, ticket chance of his arms can really go around his chest. Let's figure out the way out. The next in this world. Yeah, correct. So the system that I, the system that I was referring to, a second and a lot of people use that as a template and try to force everyone into it without really understanding that they are that the second system, the various components of spectrum and there's a continuum of it, but which you can adjust, the fit, the individual preference. So everyone says, hey, you know this guy. When second is talking about what about? You don't really understand the system.
Speaker 3:That's why it's looking not because of the system to say the application and I think that that's not until it was really good, a very bummed deal in the in the golf world to the point where people will come in and said we're not a second, don't talk to you. What will you dig in stack until, incredibly sound system, as you point out, you're constantly working on spectrums of continuance and that allows you to pick the components that you want to replace for each and every player in front of you. If you look at something as simple as the second set up, great, it gives you options and I would say, my coaching, usually influenced by second on the golf machine.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, machine, that was the original catalog yeah, and it's still, to this day, the most complete mechanical coaching system for golf. Now I'll see mac has done his thing. That next level, yeah, taking it to a completely different level. I almost created a kind of cult like following the cost of it, but again it's systemized. We'll never know what Max system looks like because it is kept. It's the dark arts right. It could never get published Because it could never finish it.
Speaker 2:Apparently like 300 different things.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but then every time you, once you get to 300, you'll find 301, you'll find 302. But it's a systemized approach and it allows the coach to pick the appropriate component for each and every player, which Second Tilt does beautifully. It's a much more accessible way of doing it than golfing machine or Mac, but it's a systemized approach and I can't comprehend why they are looked on with such disdain by a vast majority of the golfers and coaches. And if you look at use George as an example, his background is very much in Second Tilt Because he understands the principles work. Now he has taken his own beliefs and built out a framework, but still the core of that is driven by Second Tilt Golf Machine, morad. As you point out, anyone that gives Second Tilt a hard time fundamentally doesn't understand what it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if one truly understood the golf swing they would accept that it is horrendously complex. But the issue here is this the way it's taught is needlessly complicated. While the golf swing is complicated, teaching it may not need does not need to be complicated if you understand cause and effect. And I think a lot of people just teach based on spurious correlation One trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and basically just not putting the time in to understand the wonderful depth of the golf swing. It looks easy.
Speaker 3:I completely agree. If you look at the one of the original great golf teachers, Tommy Armour, he made a statement along the lines of you've got to understand the golf swing and its complexity to be able to communicate in appropriate simplicity and you do hear a lot of coaches talking about I just like to keep things simple. So, straight away, that's a red flag for me. Oh yeah, Are they keeping things simple because they don't have the depth of knowledge, or are they keeping things simple because they've got a staggering depth of knowledge and know how to simplify it? And I've had a player here this morning who's probably the first five minutes. He said to me I'm just, I like to keep my approach to golf really simple. Now, straight away. That's just telling me that I need to figure out a way to give him what is effectively complex advice in a very, very simple manner. And I think the genius.
Speaker 2:I think it's.
Speaker 3:Einstein's golf. Oh yeah, that's about to say that. Yeah, everything should be as simple as possible, but not too simple. I think that's great golf, exactly.
Speaker 2:So share some light on 12 coaching. A lot of people outside the ropes they think you guys do some sprinkle magic dust on your players. Tell us what it really is all about 99% boredom, 1% terror. No.
Speaker 3:I was looking for the answer?
Speaker 2:No, coach. I was looking for this statement. That is the ultimate quick-tip coaching.
Speaker 3:It is the ultimate quick-tip coaching, and the reality is that I think great coaching is the same, regardless of whether you're dealing with a top 50 player in the world or a 15 handicap. Yeah, it's appropriate quick-tip coaching around a blueprint and while and there will be times where you have to say to the player listen, we're going to depart from the blueprint this week because this is the only way that you can get the ball to produce, to move consistently. But ultimately you have to make sure that player is getting better in the mid and long term while performing in the short term. But again, how is that any different to dealing with a 15 handicap where you see once a week at the club it's not, and actually I think it's equally valuable for different reasons and that obviously that your Turpro is playing for a living, so there is generally a need to keep a card or secure a ranking spot, whatever. So there's always pressure involved. But then if you look at it from the other perspective of the leisure golfer, that is, their leisure time and their enjoyment of their leisure time is being put in your hands I think that's actually higher pressure than dealing with a Turpro, because I dread to think how many people have quit the game of golf because they were getting worse or not getting better, despite investing in their game and not enjoying it as a result. And that really pisses me off that golf coaches the world over are guilty of underestimating how important your role is in their leisure time.
Speaker 3:And I was very lucky to work at a super private club in Scotland before I moved to South, because the guy that I worked for who's a pain in the ass to work for, but still the best boss I ever had and one of the first things he said to me was Hugh, you've got to understand that this is their leisure time. They're spending their disposable income on something they want to do and, as a result, you never fuck with a man's leisure time ever. And that has stuck with me throughout my career that you have a huge responsibility to that individual, to every individual. Huge responsibility because this is something they love.
Speaker 2:I guess it's like serving someone flat and warm beer when it comes into a pub on a Saturday evening. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You still? I mean, I live in a village with four pubs. Which one do I go to? The one with the best beer?
Speaker 2:So it's the same with the coaching, but I think a lot of coaches get to this point where it's all about themselves. I was guilty. I'll put my hands up and say I was guilty of this when I first started coaching in 2005. I would quote the golfing machine during my lesson as though it meant something. Oh man, I fortunately learned really quickly that they were not interested in whatever I had to say about the golfing machine, or more, I'll say that I thought I would gain their respect somehow with that.
Speaker 3:You can gain the respect quicker by getting them to hit a push draw within five balls? Well, yeah, I think. But one of the things that's changed quite dramatically in my over the course of my career is that I didn't. I never, ever aspired to coach on tour. It was never on my radar. It's not like I set out to stand on a tour driving range, but I just I was in a really good process of getting better, using my experiences to drive my improve and I was making players better and a bit that inevitably led to me doing that for a living.
Speaker 3:We have a problem now in the golf coaching and to golf coaching because become aspirational and people come on. When I want to coach on tour, well, what's the secret? The secret is to make players better. There is no secret other than if you cannot improve each and every player who stood in front of you, then you're probably not gonna last long on tour. When you see you mean over 15, 20 years on tour the number of coaches you see come and go, come and go, and it's you gotta make him better. It's that simple. And being that guy that wants to coach on tour, it's it's exactly like playing number one you're gonna be good enough to be there. And generally the ones that get there are not the ones that are in love with the idea of playing on tour or coaching on tour. It's the guys that are in love and the girls that are in love with the process of becoming good enough.
Speaker 1:You know I I gotta chime in here for a quick second and I'm loving this conversation. Jesse perryman, flying, enters golf podcast. Um, as a student, uh, I think that good players tour players, your average handicap is gonna be much more tolerance of the process if they know that they're improving and that's a big piece from the students, from the student side, speaking for the student, if I go to see justin or I go to see you and and there's progress on the range and I see some different things happening on the golf course, uh, and I know that it's coming. Um, there's gonna be a lot more tolerance and that's such a vital part of the process where I think that a lot of teachers, at least that have messaged me or that I've talked to, uh, offline, that they miss is that golfers generally are gonna be tolerant, more tolerant of hitting poor shots, if they know that they're going in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Good coaches can instill that faith, that faith of hey, you know we're on the right track. It's gonna take time, you know they're certain. We don't need to get into today neurological patterns that need to be broken and changed, but as long as the coach is communicating that, whatever via whatever methodology, stack until golf machine principles, whatever it is, as long as he or she knows that they're going in the right direction and that greener pastures are are soon upon them they're. They're gonna really enjoy it, and I think that's where coaching is is big well.
Speaker 3:I mean, you've made a ton of points there to pick through, jesse, all of which I completely agree with that. It's part of the process. I think if you want the player to fall in love with the process of getting better, they've got to be enjoying it. Yep, and that looks very different for each and every player. They've got to be enjoying it. Number two they've got to be able to see progress. Okay, that gives that gives you buy-in. And the way I would talk about that with players is that I'm pretty confident. If you come and stand in my studio right now, jesse, within five balls I'm gonna have you hit the better drop, in fact, not. I will almost guarantee that. Now, that doesn't mean that you can. That's you forever.
Speaker 3:The process of owning that change and and you be coming familiar with the intricacies, the touch, the field, the process is involved. That takes a while, but when you hear coaches talk about we've got to get worse to get better, well, impact is a binary equation. All right, it's physics and geometry. It has no opinion, zero opinion. So if you're not fixing that binary equation, they're not going to get better. And it is so simple to start on that road, to give them that one component which, let's face it, for the majority of players it's getting them to hit down on the ball and have a swing direction that's less than 25 degrees left. You can do that. They're going to hit better shots. There's no opinion now.
Speaker 3:As I said, it doesn't mean that's going to be permanent. We've all struggled to make changes in our golf swing permanent. But if you get the correct mechanics to start with, you've got to buy another player and you're in a position where you know that if they continue in that road they will get better, and it's. It's sometimes hard as a coach when, when you don't see them owning that as much as you'd like to, it's very difficult sometimes not start to change direction, basically panic and decide, oh shit, I've got to do this now or I've got to do that now, that if your mechanical principles are sound, you'll be able to get every player to put the ball on, to put the club in the ball and the ground more appropriately. If they can do that and then start to own that change, they will be better golfers. Well, so that's.
Speaker 2:That's quite a different approach from the classical way of teaching. So the classical way, I guess, would be hey, show up on my t and let's look at your career, if you're a stressor stance, of course. But I've heard you say before, coach, that you might not even change someone's funky grip, assuming it's a beginner, if proper contact is being made and they start adjusting the other part before finally getting down to the group the priority is to get them putting the club in the ball properly.
Speaker 3:Can they hit ball? Then ground now wherever that face and swing is orientated. We can fix that if they consistently put club on ball. Once that becomes a pattern, we can then shift the pattern. So if they, for example, they hit down on it, they get ball turf, but everything starts left and turns further left. If that becomes a pattern, you can then shift the pattern because you know that you've either got to shift swing or action, club face or probably both. But as long as they can continue to put club on ball to go through that process, they're going to see the progress, they're going to enjoy it more and they're going to be able to play better golf as they become as they work through the process.
Speaker 2:That makes sense yes, this goes back to what you said earlier about getting the buy-in from your players. Now, if the first thing you do to your players is to put your hands on a molded grip and they feel so uncomfortable with it, you've lost all sort of potential buy-in you could get from the player. And whatever you're going to say next in the next 20 minutes going to go in from the right here and out of the left- here I mean the way I talk to it through a session with the players, and you do get.
Speaker 3:You do get these perfect sessions occasionally where you've ran through your analysis and you've said, all right, this, this is what we're going to do, so we're going to move the ball back, we're going to move the handle up and forwards, and what's going to happen there is you're going to hit down on the ball, the ball speed is going to go up, but the ball will curve in this direction. When we've started to get the club looking to the ball in the ground like that, I will then make another change to bring the ball back online, and I'm telling them that before I've even given them any. So you identified a very clear proposal that we fixed this first.
Speaker 2:That buys us the opportunity to move on to the next bit so tell us, tell us what's the fact of Spectrum Relate this coaching video.
Speaker 3:Well, we've touched on this earlier, didn't we? That if we accept that there's not one black and white swing method which we know, then straight away that requires you to have flexibility within your systems to be able to help every player. So we can only influence the golf ball three ways, and every single golf lesson we give we're trying to influence it in one, two or three of these ways. So we can either influence the speed the ball flies, the trajectory from a vertical, horizontal perspective and the spin rate. That's it. Everything we do is geared around shifting one or all of those components. Now we also know that you can achieve successful golf shots in an infinite number of ways. So your job is to find which component you need to shift. So if you look at clubface, for example, that we know what, basically, if it's five left to five right, it's actually functional. So there's your spectrum. If it's out with that, it's not functional. But if you've got a guy who's got a path that's consistently three left but his face is five left, you now know that you need to shift his face position on the spectrum to something between three and zero. That makes sense. So having that, I think the spectrum thing gives me a huge amount of flexibility and it means that I'm not coaching the same thing all the time, because I'm only ever shifting certain components. So we know what a weak grip looks like. We know what strong grip looks like.
Speaker 3:Now we also know that both have been very successful at the top of the game, and the beauty of having the spectrum system is that you can cherry pick the components for that player. That, david DeVal, is a great example. Deval was far and away the best player in the world for a short period of time and all everyone talked about was the way held at the way, head at the top when the shots hit. And not only was he incredibly good as a ball striker, he was an incredible competitor and everything corresponded right, so strong in here. So both of those are fade components. The face is closed to target, so if we get his swing direction and path left of the face, bingo, we've got the world number one. But if we change those components but keep that path, we've now made him way worse.
Speaker 2:So interesting you brought up David DeVal, there was another guy who was about a generation earlier than DeVal, also had that same strong grip, but strong in a slightly different manner threat couple. And I think you don't understand this continuum or this spectrum that you can work with. You would have tried to make David DeVal and the threat couples and threat couples and David DeVal not heard of them at all.
Speaker 3:Well, even guys. Funnily, I watched I watched DeVal play at Augusta one year and he was playing with the guy I was at the tournament with and I stood behind him in the fourth tee, the par three, so I'm dead in line with him and he's gripping it, just bang what you would call neutral so effectively in the middle of that spectrum, right that week's strong spectrum. He's gripping it and like that's different, and then he lines it up absolutely left, left wrist flat at the top and I watched him hit it all over Georgia for two days was this after it's.
Speaker 3:The win at the British was this is win after the British this is probably early, early 2000s, but everything about the way he held the club looked better and, in fact, all you're trying to do is well he couldn't hit Georgia. He hit it right at the 10th fairway of the 18th tee and flat out middle of it.
Speaker 2:And the beautiful of working this yeah, well, I said, here's one of the things that a lot of coaches don't really understand. Now, below the net, majority of your nerve endings are in the hands and the genitals and you start messing around with the grip at the first sign of trouble. It's going to be a downward spiral.
Speaker 3:I would go as far to say that if I see a good player with an unconventional grip, he's going to be harder to coach because it's so easy to change the obvious unconscionable. And I mean I've coached. I'm very lucky to coach a German player called Marcel Seymour, I know Marcel, because his face is way open at the top.
Speaker 3:He definitely functions on the weak side of every spectrum, holds a week face positions, week he's, and he was pushed down a route of stronger grip, flatter left wrist, more neutral face lost. Now, thankfully he's. He's been able to reboot and he's at a fantastic year, but he was easy as well.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say well, okay mate, you're going to grip at weaker and you're going to roll the face as open as you can. It's if you don't understand how to how to match up different components in. George talks about this a lot, the importance of matchups and the only way that I, my little brain, can process it is say right, look, we've got strong, we've got weak, we got right, we got left, we've got open, we've got closed, we've got fat, we've got thin, we've got toe, we've got heel. If you start to work along those spectrums, you can then ensure that. Well, dj, great example.
Speaker 3:Do you change the way DJ holds it and gets the top, or do you just get him to swing it further left? What's going to have him playing better golf sooner and what is something that he's going to be able to adopt? Probably the latter. So I basically created this, this system, but I've spent 30 years creating the system. But it became something much more formal in my mind when I got into coach education, because the lack of structure and system in terms of coaching analysis was such that I needed to find a way to communicate, a more effective means. So I basically created this process, which it's still constantly being refined, but for me it helps coaches make much, much, much better judgment calls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it almost is helping the rookie coach get up to speed really quickly.
Speaker 3:Otherwise both of these guys. If you can give young coaches more, less knowledge and more structure, they'd be better sooner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, otherwise these guys would be making component changes in the vacuum or let's just change the back swing, or let's just change the down swing without really understanding the impact of component changes on other components.
Speaker 3:And certainly in my coaching. I suspect the same in yours you're only ever going to shift one component at a time. You're not going to give the guy three different component changes because number one, if it doesn't work, you've got no idea what screwed him up. And if it does work, you've got no idea which component actually actually helped. But your process has to be robust enough to identify the correct component.
Speaker 2:Yeah and post Covid, I was inspired to not have any outliers in my system. So, for example, if a guy like Jim Fury came and wanted to understand his swing and my system could not explain it, then I think my system is incomplete. But if I could explain his swing and explain a guy like Justin Thomas why it worked for them, then I think it's inclusive.
Speaker 3:Well, and that's where you start to develop that. That's an understanding that you're developing there rather than gaining more knowledge. And if you look at I mean the first thing, that is an industry. I mean this is a horrible generalization, but I think the vast majority of people when they go for a golf lesson, they expect to be told what they're doing wrong, and the vast majority of people with coach golf feel that they are there to tell them what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 3:Now, the challenge with that is that it's not a good learning environment. Basically, feeling that you're shit, you're not helping the player get into a good mind space to improve them. Number one, but number two if you're constantly tuned into identifying what's wrong, you never look at what's right and you also never try and create understanding. So for me, I would. I'm encouraging all the coaches that I work with. The minute you get an unconventional swing in there, the first question you've got to ask is why does it work? Why does it not work? So I think if you're looking at it through that lens, you become a little bit smarter, identifying the right component to change. Well said there.
Speaker 2:Well, there'd be a follow-up book to the spectrum video series, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll get advanced spectrums then super advanced spectrums. Yeah, I mean, it's constantly evolving and the presentation that I give is constantly evolving because I mean, like we all are, I'm getting better the more I do. I'm getting better at it, but I feel this is something that could become. I mean, I never intended it to be this, but I think it's such a powerful tool for coaches and it would be such a powerful tool for PGA's federations when they are educating their coaches. If this was almost taught before knowledge came in, you would have a much stronger generation of coaches than we do just now.
Speaker 2:I guess that's because they're starting off with the correct philosophy on how to coach, and I think it applies to any other sport, I agree. I agree I could take your spectrum and apply it to tennis, to swimming, to life, and that's the really very macro, very enlightened view, if you will.
Speaker 3:No, thank you, I mean it's. I learned very young that a very binary approach to life. It may simplify life, but right, wrong, good, bad, happy, sad, that's not really. I mean you can learn the two extremes, so they're the two ends of the spectrum, right, but the magic lies in the varying shades of grey between the two extremities that you've got black and white binary. Okay. Well, it doesn't take much to understand absolutes, but it takes a great deal to understand everything that's happening in between those absolutes and that is human beings. That is everyday life. The magic happens in the shades of grey. It does not happen at the extremities. And that's where the method coaching thing for me really bothers me, because all you're doing is dealing with extremities, right or wrong.
Speaker 2:There you have it guys.
Speaker 3:You have 50 shades of grey I was just thinking, oh shit, someone's going to pick up on that in the minute. It was not enough.
Speaker 2:So earlier we talked about, I guess, the three steps. When someone comes for a lesson like nosing an error, fairly straightforward because of all the knowledge that's out there, prescribing a solution slightly more difficult but not impossible. Now the last step. This is what separates the men from the boys transferring that information, cementing change in your players, first on the range, and then bring it from the range to the golf course and under pressure. So can you just share with us a little bit on your process for creating change in a swing pattern?
Speaker 3:So I'm not. I'm trying to create change in the three components we talked about speed, spin, trajectory and if I don't do that, I've not given them good advice. Touch wood, most of the time, of vast majority of the time, now I'm able to make that change very quickly. So I view it as a video game that, okay, we've got level one out the way, we've made the change. So what does level two look like? Well, level two look like probably making it more of yours putting your signature on that.
Speaker 3:Level three, I think, is about introducing a variable challenge. So it's not just a set an iron off a flat line. Maybe we mix the clubs up. Then I'll start to introduce more, I'd say, very gentle stress testing, so running through trackman tests and basically establishing a baseline. So if we're working on approach play for a player, then maybe we'll test from 125 to 200 yards set a baseline. And the reason I do this is, number one, I want to know where the players at, and that's important. But number two, I want to know how it breaks down when it breaks down. So I'm garnering information from the player all the time. Just simply by seeing them having to hit a shot that theoretically matters, do they default to their bad start position? Do they default to their bad right hand position? Do they default to their bad aim? What changes when I'm actually asking them to hit a shot, because that helps educate my coaching process? Further down the line, then I'll make the testing harder and harder and harder, so I'll potentially introduce trackman's variable, then position testing, all the while hopefully getting the player to keep stance on the golf course whenever possible, getting out the golf course and watching them.
Speaker 3:But it's very difficult to create a process unless you know what the break points are, unless you know when it breaks down. Does it suddenly break down when you've gone from 7-hour to 5-hour, for example? Does it break down in the right to left? When Does it break down when it's on a slight down slope? Because, to your point earlier in the call, none of this you can achieve in the drymage.
Speaker 3:You can't find this out in the drymage and it's a term that I have stolen from Graham Walker, who I think is one of the great golf coaches in the world of golf just now, where he talks about you need to, you have to earn the right progress and you don't get to play level 2 of the video game until you've completed level 1. And the beauty of this and again, I can't lay claim to this, this is a coach who's based in England began, called Sam Willis, who's been on one of my programs. He came up with this and I think this is just magic. He has what he's called a leveling up and a layering up approach. So once you've leveled off something, you earn the right to layer up and put something else on top.
Speaker 3:And the beauty of this is that, if you do it appropriately, the player never slides back down to the very beginning. They only slip down one level. And it's folly if we as golf coaches think we can do this and this in the drym range and they're going to play better, and then you get the one guy that does go out and play better and suddenly that's what you do, ignoring the 99 who have played terribly. So, understanding the needs to make a change, consolidate the change, then apply the change in slightly more variable context, then variable with a little bit of pressure, and then increasing the challenge. And all the while this is delivered correctly, you're giving evidence to the player that they are getting better. So to your point, jesse the more they see that, the more bought in they are to what you do you do much mental game work with the players, or do you have another specialist that?
Speaker 2:no, we all do we all do every session, so can you just give us a little bit coaching, coaching players, as mental it's a mental practice but what I meant was helping these guys overcome the anxiety on the golf course, overcoming inner demons, that sort of thing, the mental side of the tournament goal.
Speaker 3:Yes and no is the simple answer. Because you get to a point where, ultimately, if the player is and the player knows that if there are other components that are stopping it, too often the golf coach will say well, it's your team, that's shit there, or you weren't focused or something, the mechanics weren't good, I am not qualified in it, that's way outside my lane and it's unethical of me to even get involved in it. Do I have enough? I've got enough understanding to know when I, when I run out of talent, and then I have a network of people that I can. I can push them towards. But generally you'll see an improvement in players mental capabilities just through hitting more good shots on the golf course.
Speaker 2:So I like to talk a little bit about your education shot. So we've got short game system. Maybe you get two, three liners. And what short game system video series is all about?
Speaker 3:It's because it's all relatively new. We were going to Alex and I are going to do some more short game stuff together, andres and I. The systematic coaching program that Andreas, callie and I run. Just it gets different every single year. We both we're both evolving, so we can't possibly put out the same message because we're improving every year and so we've systematic coaching. Initial one was from March 22 and then 2.0 was this year's version, where we delved a little bit more into baseline models. I started to touch upon spectrums, and system 3.0, I suspect, is going to include more of what we've just been talking about pressure testing, transfer of skill from ranged golf course. But it's evolving all the time and there's. I don't think there's anything wrong with presenting the same message in a different way, because it will help reinforce the importance of so every systematic coaching camp that Andres and I run. There's still some core stuff that we will always present in there.
Speaker 3:We will talk about the need to have a robust analysis process. We will talk about the need to have a robust diagnosis process. So we need to know the what with the player and then we need to know the why. The balls moving right. That's the what. Why is it moving right? Well, the face is open to the path. Ok, why is it open to the path? Well, it's because the lead time grips to do so. It's those, those elements will always be included in what we do, because that's the heart of great golf coaching. All we do beyond that is open people's eyes to other options. Open people's eyes to more of our principles, more of our preferences, more of our baseline models and more skills to coach those baseline models.
Speaker 2:So lastly, can you talk to us about the coach mastery program?
Speaker 3:Of course. Yeah, I mean, that's basically where this whole thing started, in that I've been very frustrated at the standard of golf coaching and very critical of it probably for 20 years. Ironic that I was probably a shit coach for five of those 20 years, but I was always aware that I was a shit coach. The I basically was in a position where I had to say I need to stop complaining about this or I need to do something about it. And my colleague on the coach mastery program is a guy called Simon Jenkins who's a academic. He's he's written a zillion research papers on golf coaching, sports coaching and I was actually talking to him on an entirely different subject and thought you know what, simon, give me your thoughts on this. I want to create a year long program for aspiring golf coaches to help them, on their terms, become better coaches. And that conversation, which was a 10 minute conversation, became a two hour conversation, and then that two hour conversation became another three or four hour conversations over the course of the next few hours, just with ideas coming.
Speaker 3:So we started this in April 21. It only had five students on it. The way it works is it's basically a combination of in person and online mentoring and support, which covers everything from technical knowledge, coaching systems, coaching structures, history of golf coaching, personal beliefs, bias, to mental health issues, to social media, marketing issues, to just basic financial issues. We're literally providing support in every area that a golf coach needs. So the second year I had I ended up running two courses, one fully remote and one hybrid. And then this year we've got two full courses next and we're already pretty much fully subscribed for next year. And it was it was.
Speaker 3:The principle behind it is that I want to be able to help golf coaches navigate the challenges of being a golf coach and provide them with the tools to become expert, for the simple reason that the game of golf Desires great coaching. It doesn't deserve shit coaching. And, yeah, I just I love every minute of it. I'm very fortunate that I've had everyone that's been through the program or number one they're really good human beings. Number one they share my passion for getting better at coaching golf and helping people play better golf. And number three there they have this huge drive to be better.
Speaker 3:And what struck me over the course of not just the coach mastery program, but what struck me over the course of running through, of just educating coaches in general is that there's a ton of really good coaches out there that have got no support. They don't know where to turn to get better. They're not getting it from their governing bodies, they're not getting it from the people they work with I think you talked about it a little bit earlier that there's there's no one out there saying, come on, I'll help you, and that's really all I want to do. I mean selfishly, I just want to leave the game in a slightly better place than I found it. It's not not really much.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, so we're going on this next find out more about you.
Speaker 3:Well, you can. You can listen to me ranting on Instagram, humor coaching. There's there's a run, a weekly quiz about impact or golf swing. I have a Monday bitch about the state of golf instruction. I introduce players to basically my principles as a coach, and you can also go to my website, humorcom, where all of the education opportunities are there, whether it's the private mentoring or the coach mastery program or the videos you've talked about. And I've also just launched a new product and they're called Coach case studies, where I sit down with coaches remotely and we talk through their students and how they can they can coach your students. That so it's there's. There's plenty on there and it's growing all the time.
Speaker 2:Thanks again. I really enjoyed catching up with you after so long. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:It's always good to thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hugh, thanks for coming on. That was a great conversation and just as always great conversation. You know we're all about and closing helping just the game of golf period, you know to give.
Speaker 3:We've got a great sport here and it deserves better than getting a lot of instances.
Speaker 1:Well, I could not agree more. Could not agree more, gents. Once again, thanks for coming on. Hugh, thanks for giving us your time and I will also put all the links to find you and Justin in the show notes. And once again, everybody, thank you for listening and I hope this finds everybody and finds them well and have a great week, thank you.