Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Hello and welcome to Flaghunters ! It is a privilege to bring to you this powerful insight into playing better Golf. In all my years of being in the game of Golf from competing at a high amateur level, to caddying, teaching, and being a overall Golf geek, I have an insatiable, curiosity driven desire to get down to the bottom of what it takes to truly get better playing the game of Golf that we all unconditionally love. This has been one of the greatest journeys of my life and I am deeply grateful for all that Golf has given me. Thank you for joining me in this incredible journey. This is my ever evolving love letter to Golf. Jesse Perryman P.S. Please Rate, Review and Subscribe !
Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
Captain Nathan Smith Reveals the Soul of Cypress Point
We welcome USA Walker Cup Captain Nathan Smith to discuss the upcoming matches at Cypress Point Club, the first time this iconic course has hosted the event since 1981 and will be televised for the public to see its splendor.
• Nathan Smith brings his perspective as a four-time US Mid-Amateur champion who has played in four Masters
• Cypress Point's Alister MacKenzie design philosophy offers "an easy birdie or a hard-fought bogey" on every hole
• The course demands strategic precision with properly played angles rather than just power
• Each section of the course presents different challenges—forest holes (1-6), dune holes (7-12), and the iconic ocean holes (13-18)
• The 16th hole requires a 230-yard carry over the Pacific Ocean and is considered by many to be the greatest par 3 in golf
• The dune sand at Cypress is particularly penal with a "90% chance you're not going to be able to advance it very far"
• Match play format perfectly suits the course design with constant risk-reward decisions where "no lead is going to be safe"
• The 13th green exemplifies MacKenzie's genius with a design that "plays like six small greens" despite its modest size
• Morning fog potentially giving way to afternoon wind can completely transform how the course plays within hours
Tune in to Golf Channel this weekend to witness this spectacular venue and see the world's best amateur golfers compete in the 50th Walker Cup.
Hello and welcome once again to another edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. I am your host, jesse Perryman, along with my co-host, justin Tang. We welcome you to this week. Justin is not joining us this week. This week is very, very special, very special to me and very special to the amateur community, the USGA, the RNA and the world of the world golf, and that is Walker Cup Week.
Speaker 1:Walker Cup Week the first time since 1981, it is at the Cypress Point Club, which is located in Pebble Beach, california. I'm sure that most people who listen have heard of Cypress, some of you have been fortunate to play it, and this week it is really being unveiled to the general golfing populace and all of its splendor, glory, brilliance, genius. I can't think of any more descriptive words to describe this place. It's near and dear to my heart, I've been a part of it for many years and the members have graciously allowed me to release this podcast this week along with USA Captain Nathan Smith. Nathan's quick background he's in the insurance business. Notably, he's won four United States Mid-Amiters. He's played in four Masters. He's won five USGA events in total, along with the four Mid-Amiters. He has also won the very first USGA four-ball, which was at the Olympic Club, which just recently held the USAM this year in 2025.
Speaker 1:This week is very special. The basic breakdown of the conversation is we talk about the golf course and we talk about the guys on the team. It's just one of these things where two guys are just in the flow and celebrating an iconic venue. The golf course really is the bell of the ball this week. Folks, I'm not disrespecting the 20 of the world's finest players, whether they're amateur or professional, they're 20 of the finest. The golf course is really the showcase here, in my opinion, and you'll see it. You'll see it live on the Golf Channel this weekend and in the meantime, enjoy this conversation, enjoy the captaincy that Nathan has been honored to be a steward of the last couple of years and he's also the captain next year at La Hinch in Ireland, so he'll be around the Walker Cup for another year and enjoy his company and his influence.
Speaker 1:Nathan is a good friend of mine. We are really fortunate to have him accept the captaincy and enjoy his words. I've enjoyed his words for the last couple of years, as well as his friendship, his knowledge, his expertise into playing the game, sharing his wisdom and his insights not only to me, for all of us, to all of us, so that we can pick up his bread and crumbs and learn and move forward in this game. I'll be posting some cool stuff this week. Make sure to tune in in, primarily on my Instagram, so for those who follow me, you already know, but if you don't, it's at flag hunters golf pod and follow Nathan as well. Nathan Smith, cypress 2025 is his Instagram handle and cheers.
Speaker 1:Everyone enjoy this week. It's a special one. It's a deeply special one to me and again, thank you to George Still, the president of the US excuse me, the president of Cypress Point and those who allowed this to happen. Cheers. Hello. This is Jesse Perryman of the Flag Runners Golf Podcast, welcoming you to this very, very special edition. We have Captain Nathan Smith on today. Nathan has been on the podcast before he was on about a year and a half ago, has been on the podcast before he was on about a year and a half ago. He's become a good friend and somebody who I would consider one of the finer players that I know and an expert in this game, being the USA captain. I think we're fortunate to have him, for the first time in history, cypress Point the host of this event will be televised on the Golf Channel and I've gotten permission to talk about this with Nathan. Those who know me know what my affiliation is with this incredible place. And, nathan, welcome again, pal, to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, thanks for having me on again. You know, we talked maybe a year or two ago and we're finally here. We're finally here, you know, a couple of weeks away, and appreciate all the golf ball and are really really, really good.
Speaker 1:I mean, wow, they're like mini tour players already. You know, attack the golf course. You know this is a McKenzie golf course and you have to be an angle master to understand it and appreciate it. So I, just as you know, with my affiliation with the club for 30 plus years, your expertise, you seeing it, what do you see unfolding? I mean it's really kind of a classic golf course with the modern day player.
Speaker 2:Well, those are great points. I think that it is amazing watching the guys, how good they are on both teams. I've watched them for two years and it's it's incredible to watch them play golf. They're so developed, it's so young, such a young age. But you mentioned their power, kind of how explosive they are with the golf ball, but that's kind of the genius design of Cypress Point. Like you said, you do have to play the angles.
Speaker 2:I think there's so many greens out there that have three or four quadrants on them that you can have, you know, certain pin placements, pin placements each day, and, um, you know the firmness of it. It's it. It will be tough to get uh close to some, but others there, you know some kind of backboards that you could. You could see some, uh, fireworks out there. So I think I think it's going to be incredible.
Speaker 2:I think the course overall is you know, I think it just builds to the greatest stretch in golf 15, 16, 17,. But I think you're going to, I think everybody at home and then everyone that's there is going to have so much fun watching all these risk reward holes, especially on the front five through nine, and, um, you know again, nine's a drivable hole. And then you know seven with the backstop and and you know five with the complex screen there They'll have a couple pins in front, we could have a backstop, and I just think it's going to be incredible. I think it's going to be one of the best Walker Cups ever. Like I said, win, lose or draw. It's the 50th and it's going to be incredible. It's going to be beyond words.
Speaker 1:What an incredible, iconic place for the first time in history to be televised to share with the golfing public. It's a masterpiece, and the holes that you mentioned, nathan, are really typical and really exemplify McKenzie's genius. With risk-reward, I mean, mckenzie's design philosophy was an easy birdie or a hard-fought bogey. So take 8-9, for example. So for those who have not had the fortune to be out there, 8-9 are two very short par 4s. 8's what? 330 yards tipped out, and nine to a back left pin might be 288, something like that. You know, um, so I I mean, what are your thoughts on that? At first blush it's like, hmm, kind of sounds like it's a pushover well, it's anything but a pushover and everybody that's played there knows that.
Speaker 2:You know it's. It's a genius design. It's a timeless course, uh, let alone if you start to get some wind. But I think the way it'll be, the way it'll be, uh, set up will will you know, you have to play it, you know definitely the right way and everything, and I I think it's just going to be an incredible Walker Cup that it is a course that you know, you have to learn, you have to play, you know the angles, you have to be on the right side of the hole, and that's what's incredible about it. I mean, it's timeless and it kind of stands up in today's modern game.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you say that. I've had that conversation with a few of the members and people who have been affiliated with the club for a long time. When the Walker Cup was announced, there was concern that the golf course would not be able to handle the modern equipment. But let's counter that with the genius of what McKenzie is trying to tell the players to do. Let's take number five, for example. Well, number five normally is a par five. For the tournament it's a par four. However, it's match play, so it doesn't really matter. There's a lot of risk-reward there.
Speaker 2:Sure, I think if you go through those holes and with the bunkers out there, um and and again, you could even start even on one. I think now, with, with what they're going to have down, you know the right side, with with the tents and stuff and the bunkers, you're going to have to play it the right way. That's going to be a tight shot, you know. Two is going to be, you know a tight shot.
Speaker 2:I think it's a genius design where I think length is an advantage out there, but yet you have to hit it in the right areas and you can't hit it through the fairway on two, um four again, you have to play underneath the bunkers and then five, uh, that's going to be a great hole. You're going to have to, you're going to have to fit it in between those bunkers and then the second shot is to a green. That can, you know, have a pin up front with a backstop or you know one in the back on the right that falls off and I just think it's going to be. You're just going to see so many different fireworks and fun holes and I don't think any lead is going to be safe out there for really either team.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, I think that's a good point. It's a good point to know that, like say, for example, for the listener who hasn't had the chance to be out to Cypress Point. Number one is a slight dogleg right, par four. It's a pretty strong opening hole. It takes about, you know, on a typical morning maybe a 245 to 250 carryover a grouping of about three trees that are technically down the middle of the fairway and then we have the Walker Cup USGA tents that are what would be normally the range on the right side and that's going to be out of bounds, with some pretty thick rough on the left, bracketed by a couple of bunkers. And if the kids want to rip a driver and they pull it a little bit, they can actually hit it through the fairway and into the dune.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and then the same goes for number two, if they try to cut off too much of the dog leg. It's a slight dog leg left, par five, that from from the t's where I think they're going to put them out, it's going to be about five, 75, but none of the kids will all be able to reach it. But it's like if they're off 20, my, you know, minus 10 yards on either side. They can be on the right rough, or they can be down in the Canyon on the left.
Speaker 2:Well, you need to, yeah, and you need to get the right angle no-transcript to control your spin. You know, on your on some of your shots into the green as well, so that's going to be a big big thing do you see potentially on the Monterey Peninsula?
Speaker 1:typically in the mornings we have some low clouds, some morning fog. Can you potentially see a day where there's low clouds and fog in the morning and then it clears up in the afternoon, it gets sunny and then it starts to get windy, like? How differently can the golf course play within a matter of hours?
Speaker 2:I think it can play very differently. I mean, I think that you know we've been out there when even you know the kind of the fog rolls in on some of those holes on 15 or 16 real quick, and then you know you've seen it burn off really quick as well. And uh, and that's the thing we're just talking about, the genius design of it and how to play it without starting to get you know some of those. You know windy conditions and at times you can cross that road to 16 and it can feel that temp can drop. You know five or 10 degrees. So you know you're going to have to be. We'll definitely have some cashmere in the bag. If we're not, we're not wearing it already. So you got it. You got to be prepared for that in the bag. If we're not, we're not wearing it already.
Speaker 1:So you got it. You got to be prepared for that. Yeah, it's. It's interesting because you can definitely have a few different seasons out there during the course of the run one all in one and and speaking of that, looking at the golf course, kind of buttoning up this.
Speaker 1:uh, for those who again haven't had the fortune to be out there, but you'll be able to see it live in color on TV that the first six holes, the middle six holes and the last six holes are very unique and they're also different and they can play differently between the morning and then the afternoon. So let's talk about the first six holes, real quick, one through six, going inward, kind of away from the ocean and into the forest.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that that's you know. Even even teeing off the first, I mean, like I said, I mean that's something where and that's going to be an amazing amphitheater right there Um, you know it's, it's funny to be there and, uh, there's going to be a different feeling with, um, probably, you know, thousands of people kind of around that first tee and it's going to be a tight tee shot to a green that probably has three or four quadrants on it. They're going to have really tough pins on it and you're going to have to hit really two good shots there to have a good chance at even birdier, like I said, I mean to be able to two putt for par. You're going to have to have a good, to have a good chance that, uh, even birdier, like I said, I mean, uh, to be able to two putt for par. You're gonna have to watch some false fronts and some some runaway slopes there.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know, after you get through that, you go to number two and and it's, it's an amazing design where you got the ocean behind you there as you're teeing off. But you got to be respectful of the left side. Always seems like there's a magnet. Well, it wants to kind of bring you down to that left side they're kind of in the sand dunes area but, uh, to kind of bite it off to take a shortcut. But then you don't want to, you know, play too safe and hit it through the, uh, the fairway there, and that's that's we're talking about earlier, where that rough could could crop up and then, um, you know, if you get it out there far enough, you might have a chance, you know, a go at the green and um, you got to be respectful to those bunkers that you don't kind of come up short. Left you have a back pin, but uh, I think three is an incredible par three too, where it's just just it's, it's on the shorter side. You know 150, 155, but uh, you know, again, they have so many incredible pins there, they, they could go on the left side or back right or, uh, they can really hide the pin. I think that's something where, again, you're going to have to play the angles and be respectful of you know where the pin is and the firmness of the green and um, four again is, you know, somewhat similar to number one. They just have the bunkers on on the other side and I think we've talked, the genius of the design. When you look, when you're on four green, you look back, you don't see any bunkers. You know, um, you know they're covered up, the way the design is, but, uh, you know you have to play underneath those bunkers.
Speaker 2:I think four is probably one of the most challenging greens on the.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know the course, you have a false front there and and, uh, probably a lot, of, a lot of quadrants and different things where they could put the pins, uh, and it's an extremely fast green and you got to be respectful of that.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, five is just such a fun, such Beautiful, beautiful look from the tee with all the bunkers, and you kind of have to take it over the first set and kind of hit them in between the next ones that are out there probably about 320.
Speaker 2:And then again, you've got to play an incredible iron shot just to get it on the right side of the green, wherever the pin might be, and you might have that backstop up front, but, uh, an incredible hole that you know you're gonna have to see two great shots to get it on the green. And and then, um, you know, six as a whole, you have to feel out with the bunker out there. I'm curious to see, if guys try to get it past that bunker on the right side, if it might get firmer or you know you could play underneath it and kind of set up the hole from there and uh, the backdrop there behind six is beautiful too with the sand and 70 and everything. But uh, you know they're fun holes, they're challenging holes. Again, I think a lot can happen really quick out there even on those, and you know no lead is really going to be safe playing those holes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I find it really interesting that these, these, all of these young men are the best amateurs in the world, or at least some of the best amateurs, and what McKenzie asks you to do on some of these holes. So, for example, nathan, you mentioned number six, a dogleg left downhill par five that there's going to be some conditions where, let's say, 275 off the tee might reach that bunker because of how the fairway is designed and the prudent play would be to play short of it. However, these young men, they hit it incredibly long. I mean that is an option. So to try to hit it past that corner bunker, which I'm sure they can.
Speaker 2:The genius of it out there is that you have options. That's the greatest thing, and I don't want to skip ahead, but I think that's one of the greatest things about you know even number 16 that you can. You can play to the left um, it's not going to be 230 or 240 or anything. Um, you can play it for the rest of your life. You can. You have options. If there is some win, you can take it over the left. I think that's the amazing thing on a lot of these holes. It's enticing you to bite off more, as you said, and if you bite off too much, it could really be a tough par, a tough bogey, and so you really have to stay disciplined out there and know the course.
Speaker 1:The risk. That's the whole thing with the risk-reward factor and the fact that McKenzie has this uncanny ability to tempt you. You look at some of those shots out there and you say, oh, I can do that, I can do that.
Speaker 2:And you can. Maybe you can On some days, maybe you can On some days you can, and I think that's what's so great about it is you can play the course you know in a different way every day and have some fun with it. And I think in a match play situation I think you'll see some of those, you know. It depends how the match is going and guys will take chances or take risks or play safe and force their opponent to take risks. I just think it's going to be incredible.
Speaker 1:It's going to bring the sophistication back into how to play chess with the golf course, how to play, potentially, chess against your opponent. I mean, I'm all for what Bobby Jones said you play against old man par. But, cypress, you know, let's keep going, we'll keep adding on to this, but let's talk about To your point, though.
Speaker 2:I think there could be some matches where guys are quite a bit under par and there could be some other matches that guys are over par and there wouldn't be that much of a difference. Right, there's a foot or two out there, a yard or two or yard or two that could really make the difference that's a great point.
Speaker 1:That's such a great point. Let's start with the dune holes, or at least let's go into the second six hole section of Cypress Point, which is seven through what 11? Something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, seven through 12, excuse me, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think seven's going to be an exciting hole there. You wonder, I think you're probably going to see a hole of one there. Yeah, you know, I think with that backstop, if you're not, you're going to see a couple that are very close where they're able to have that backstop and the ball feeds back there and you know, a fun par three with the sand and everything behind it, a little bit of a slope. So if you go a little long it could come back, but if you go too far it'll stay up there and then you're really in trouble. That's the genius of that. Yeah, false front there Can't be short, um, but like I said, I think you'll see some fireworks. There, might even see a hole in one. So you hear some roars. It's. It might be coming from that hole. You know eight from the back, t, as you said, could be, could be 330, could be 340. Um, you know you could take a run at that green. I just I think that, um, you know, if you hit it, hit it at the dunes it's going to be tough because it's tough to play out of there. So you probably just keep it a little left of the tree and then again that's an incredible green with how many different levels and sections. We'll probably have a pin each day and I think that's going to be just a just a great fun hole. And then nine, I think even one of the you know best, best scenes or best you know kind of pictures behind you. You're kind of up on that tee, maybe the highest point of the course, um, you know, as you said, probably about a 290. You know, um, par four and, yeah, you could, you could, classic McKenzie, you can lay up somebody to have a little wedge. You know, use a backstop. You could, you could take a run at it, play out of the bunker. But again, you know, if you're a little bit off there, you could, you could make an X. So, um, you're going to see, I think, all the above there and, uh, you know 10, which they'll probably play as a par four straight away.
Speaker 2:I think that this is another thing. With Cypress where we've talked about, you know, if anybody was worried about the length, I think 10 and 11 are probably two of the toughest, you know longest holes where you know power and speed and distance do come into play. If you can carry that bunker out there, that's probably around 310 or so. That's a huge advantage to be able to carry that and open that hole up A little false front there, but it's a great hole and you're elevated on that tee box. And then I think 11 is probably the longest, probably toughest par four or one of them out there with the bunkers in the middle of the fairway.
Speaker 2:And then that second shot always feels like it plays long and you have the dunes in the background, just a beautiful backdrop. Got to take two really good shots there to to hit the green and, um, you know, have a good look there. And then, um, you know, 12 going around the corner. Then that that part four, and you start to see the ocean in the background and you're kind of heading towards it. Once you kind of go around that that dune on 11, you know you're kind of kind of headed for the ocean. So it's, it's just an incredible laid out. You know, golf club and it's just going to be. It's just going to be so much fun. I think the match play holes are going to be incredible and the people are going to be beyond and entertained out there yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:So let's, let's go back to, let's talk about 11 and 12. Real quick. 11, for those who again haven't been on property is straightaway par 4. That might have one of the most ridiculously well-engineered, very consciously crafted green McKenzie. I think that green's a masterpiece. I mean my three favorite greens out there are 11, 12, and 13.
Speaker 1:13 might be my favorite green in golf, but we'll get there. So there are some interesting hole locations. On the 11th green that the I say kids, that the players are going to have to navigate, and where angle does come in, there is a pin that's middle right on 11, all the way to the right, which there's a chance that the USGA is going to put it there. Walk us through a scenario where a kid blocks it right and they have to deal with that. It may be if they're hitting it out of the rough and they have a lie that's serviceable enough to get it to the green, say a one 65 shot. What are they looking at?
Speaker 2:Well, there's not a lot of room up there. From that distance to that pin You're going to have to respect that pin. Now, somehow you're able to carry those bunkers out there, which would be, you know, we talked about that kind of like Rory McIlroy asked, kind of three, 30 carry. I don't know if you're going to be able to do that. You might be able to get to that pin. There's not a lot of room over there in between bunkers on the right side. It's probably, you know, probably you know six or seven paces for that pin you're talking about.
Speaker 2:And yeah, if you hit it right there you're going to, you're going to be very stymied, you know, with not a lot of green to work with or you know, in the bunker and then it kind of falls away to the middle of the green. So you know that's going to be, that's going to be tough. So if you're back that far, chances are it's probably going to be kind of a little left of the pin and kind of be respectful of that and go from there. But to your point, if there's a pin in the back, the back pin is very tough too because it's such a long hole.
Speaker 2:At times you feel it almost plays 490 or so par four, and then you put the pin way in the back, it feels like it adds 15, 20 or so, so, um, and there's not a lot of room back there as well. So, uh, it, it's an incredible green, it's an incredible hole and, uh, and again, it's challenging. It's fun to have some shorter holes out there. Um, you can possibly get a look, and then there's, and then it's incredible to have a hole like this. That is, it's, it's very long, very challenging, and you really have to hit, you know, two big golf shots yeah, yeah, that's well, that's, that's well.
Speaker 1:uh, well described, nathan, and I wanted to give the listener just a a quick illustration of what could happen out there, since we're saying pictures with words. And then number 12, I wanted to make sure that I shout out Mr Ben Hogan, because it had been known that the 12th hole, the par four dogleg, right at Cypress Point, was his favorite par four in the world.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:It makes sense, because he cut the ball primarily Sure. So he was a left and right player and you know it probably fit his eye in that second shot, with the ocean in the background and the way the green is situated between the bunker and the dune just probably fit his eye. I mean, I think it's a brilliant hole, it really is. And that green slopes for the listener. The 12th hole, the green at Cypress Point, slopes primarily from front to back, so you're hitting more and almost into a downhill green. And then there's a right slope there that the players can use to access not only the green but if they play that right slope they can access that middle right pin and the back left pin.
Speaker 2:So kind of to your point, nathan, of what you said earlier in the discussion it's it, it's a great hole and, um, you know, again, you have to be careful not to bite too much off to the right Cause. You'll kind of be in those dunes in the sand, and that can be, you know, kind of a. You never know what kind of lie you're going to get there. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a. It's a great second shot too, with the ocean in the background, and sometimes you can have a side hill lie out there, that that you can either kind of pull it or feel like you have to push it. So, uh, and usually the wind is kind of in your face. So, it's, it's a. Uh, it's a great hole, it's a fun hole, and I can see why it's his favorite, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. The dunes before we leave the dunes and we head out to the ocean, tell the listeners about the dune sand at Cypress Point. If the players do get in it, what are they looking at on any of the holes?
Speaker 2:Well, you're looking at a lot of trouble. You know chances are. You know there's probably a good 90% chance that you're not going to be able to advance it very far. It seems like the ball sits down. You know it's not going to be a good lie and then you always play the game of you know kind of can you, can you find it in there? So you definitely want to stay out of it. Nothing good is going to happen when you, when you go in there, so you definitely definitely want to stay out of it. It looks benign, you know, I mean it's manicured so well, but when you get in it is definitely trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is as we say no bueno, no fun to get in there. No bueno, no indeed, yeah, no bueno. So let's roll up to one of the great. I mean, I don't know. It would be hard for me to imagine too many more par fours in the world that are visually as inviting, stunning and just awe-inspiring draw-dropping anything you want to throw at it, nathan than that's 13. My goodness, that hole.
Speaker 2:Well, it's amazing, my goodness, that hole, well it's amazing, it's, it's, you know, I think it's, you know, if you're there and and, uh, I think a lot of people are going to pick that as one of their favorite holes.
Speaker 2:I just think, with the ocean, the background, you even have 17 mile drive. Uh, you know just the way the hole is structured, the way the green is cut, you know, kind of into the, uh, the bunkers, the hillside of kind of where you tee off on too, it just sits there beautifully, you know, with the ocean backdrop is, uh, it's really amazing from the tee, just looking at that hole, just sit there and uh, yeah, it's, it's one of the, you know, one of the funnest holes and most beautiful holes that I've I've ever. So it's amazing. And then to your point. The green is so much fun too. There's kind of a little ridge. There's quadrants there. You have to be respectful. You don't want to be on the other side of the ridge Another genius design that you need to know where the pin is there and be on the right side of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and with the green speeds, for example let's say the USGA puts any of those pins on the right, whether it's front right, middle right or back right there is a spine that runs right up the middle of the green and with the green speeds I don't know I'm going to guess that they're going to be standing pretty close to 13. If not at 13,. It's a little bit of an educated guess, nathan. I don't know. Maybe Does that sound about right. Sounds about right. Sure, if those pins are over there on the right and the player is on the left and they have to putt it up and over the spine, I mean, what are their chances of putting it close, let alone even to putting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd probably say, with that great speed you're not going to be able to do that, and that's the thing. So that's what makes that hole so incredible. You're going to have to hit a great drive there to set up the second shot and you're going to have to hit a quality iron shot in there to get it on the right side. Because, again, yeah, if you're, you're on the left side, that's fine, and and the the pin is on the right, you're not going to be able to to stop the ball, probably to get it within probably six or eight feet, you know, of the spine. So it's a, it's another genius hole. But at the same time, if your iron game is tight and you're able to do that, sometimes you can use that as a little backstop and get that closer. That's what's just, that's what we're saying before. That's where sometimes you feel like you could be a yard or you know, a couple of feet off or just a little off, and it's it makes a huge difference out there.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you the 13th green at Cypress Point. If I was a golf course architect, nathan, I would be asking for permission to come out and study that green. That green is just to me. It's genius because it's not that big of a surface, because it's not that big of a surface, but it plays like six small greens, maybe even seven.
Speaker 2:Sure, and that's a little bit of a timeless design that is out there and especially if some wind kind of crops up, that could cause some havoc on the second shot and that would be tough to get it in the right section and then all of a sudden it's a tough two-putt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, let's close up 13 with just one for the ages, not to be outdone, but the 14th hole at Cypress Point might be. I mean, it's so highly engineered, it's so simple. I still, after all of my time of being out there, nathan, I still can't wrap my head around how brilliant that hole is.
Speaker 2:Well it is, and it's amazing, being on that tee box, you share it with number two that comes off. Number one, number one's just to your left there and you know again, you have the ocean just to your right, 17-mile drive, and you know that tee shot's really important. You really have to kind of hit it on a line out there to have a shot for the second, the second um. You know, with the cypress trees that kind of get tight out there. So you need about a 240 shot off the tee and you really got a position at left center so you can, you can have a clear shot and see the see the green.
Speaker 2:And you know, if you're able to do that, then that I just I love walking through the cypress, you know trees, I love that green where there's a little bunker left but there's a little kind of hill that you can use that might feed the ball the right. But if you go too far left you'll be in that bunker and then if the pins it's it's a slightly tiered green um, but if you're, if you go too far over the green, it'll run off. So you have to be respectful when that pins in the back or on the right side. The ball can really run off there into the rough. Yeah, so it's a uphill second shot and you need to be really precise with those shots there.
Speaker 1:The funny thing about that hole is on the ground. It's only like 380, 375.
Speaker 2:I think what's amazing out there is, if the temperature is always anywhere from 50 to 65, these holes play longer. It's hard, it's hard to describe that. They're only you know. If we start saying things that are 340 or 380, you know they're playing. They're playing longer. You have to hit them in a specific place and it's it's. It's so much fun.
Speaker 1:To me it's genius, and I don't know if I've ever seen more good players have more difficulty with any hole out there. Any more difficulty than 14.
Speaker 2:It's tough. It's tough. The second shots you know you're always going to deal with kind of the ocean, wind and every there, if you're lucky enough to get it in a good spot that has a straight on view of the green. But it's it's. It's very difficult and it's such a incredible hole and the green itself is nasty.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, like you said it's, it's, it's kind of like two tears, like two gentle tears, but the the penalty for chasing pins out there and the misses are very severe, very severe. You know, say, for example, if that pens back right and you're trying to chase that pen and you hit it too far you, you just can't do that there.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's, that's again. You can't take the chance of going long. And then, um, that chips, you know, virtually impossible. You probably chip it to the front of the green if you get it up there. So you know, um, I think you kind of have to be in the middle of the green and kind of take your chances from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Par's a very good score there.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:Par's a very good score, just a brilliant hole. Again, if I was an architect, I'd want to really, you know, get, get where McKenzie was how he designed this thing. I mean because it's not. You know, in the modern game today, especially with the elite amateur play and the tours around the world, it's just not uncommon these days to have par fives that are over excuse me, par fours that are over 500 yards, Exactly when you, when you have a hole that technically on the card is short but it still demands the precision, a well thought out plan.
Speaker 1:To me it's like if I was an architect, that's, that's where I would want to go. You know, that's, that's the direction that I want to go, speaking selfishly for me. But you know, 14 is a brilliant par four. And then when we go across the road, we exit the back of the 14th green and we go across 17 mile drive and onto the 15th tee, and on to the 15th tee. I want to know, when you first stepped onto the property and you made that walk, what was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, I did and I think I was saying to a few people I had just heard about it was only a few years ago before I played Cypress and all as I had heard was 16, 16, 16. And it's the greatest par you know, part three ever. It's iconic. You've seen the pictures, you heard about the match, you've heard all this stuff and you know I went across the road and you rounded kind of the corner there on 15. I mean 15 is one of the most beautiful, like iconic, incredible holes. You know it's it's. You know 120, know 120, 130 yards and it's just amazing, it's. It's all right there. You're right on top of the ocean.
Speaker 2:I couldn't believe it when you rounded the corner that that blew me away. Um, more than anything else. You weren't quite quite prepared to round the corner and once you do, it's like wow, I mean it. I mean it's just heaven on earth with what you're seeing and that hole of 15 and over the ocean, and it's everything from the rocks, the seal. I mean you're right there on top of it, on the ocean, and it's hard to even hit a shot because you're just looking around everywhere. It just blew me away. Honestly, it did. It's one of even hit a shot because you're just looking around everywhere. It just blew me away. Honestly, it did. It's one of my favorite holes ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree. Well, let's talk about the strategy. That green, that tee shot, are a multitude of hole locations on that green and how differently that hole plays to each hole location.
Speaker 2:It's astounding, it it is. And there's so many um, you know, I mean everything from you know, back of the green, with the bunker right behind it, front left, with really only six or seven paces of room. We could go kind of on the right side, kind of middle right, similar to the pin we talked on 11. On the right side, again, there's only five or six paces. I just think it's incredible. I mean, it's only, it's only 120, 130 yards, but with where they can put the pins, your, your margin from error is so, so small and you can, you can really get some wind there and everything. So it's, it's very tough.
Speaker 1:I mean the players are. I mean they're probably going to be hitting wedges for the most part nine irons, right, I mean. But still, though, let's talk about how precise that you have to be and that the margin for error on some of those pins that are going to be hidden, if a player is, you know, forced to go for it in match play and they're just a little bit off, let's just say, if you're, if they're on the, if we're all the way back on the uh, on the ocean side, t on 15 and the pins up front left, and a player tries to hit a wedge right at it and he goes into the left bunker that he literally can only be. He might only be 15 feet away from the hole, but what are his chances of getting it up and down?
Speaker 2:well, they're not good. In fact, you could be a lot closer to the hole. I mean, first of all, the ball could egg on you. Um, yeah, you're coming down that down slope and then there's another bunker right there, so you're gonna have you're not gonna have much room at all, um, and it's uh, and that's the genius of it, but yet, if you're able to hit a good shot, you're're going to have a very close birdie putt.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But if you go in any of those bunkers there's not a lot of room at all to maneuver the ball and you kind of have some slopes that are going kind of away from the bunker, which makes it even harder to stop the ball.
Speaker 1:Right, right, I mean, I just again for a short iron hole. Mckenzie was so conscious about the demands, and you know. And conversely, let's go back to say the 11th hole in comparison because he knew that you're hitting a mid to long iron for most people I mean, the young men might be hitting short irons if they're positioned themselves correctly, but the demands are still equal. The hole is designed to accept this, but can also accommodate any other thing. So you know 15, for example, because he knew that players are going to have short clubs in, he's going to still make them stay on their toes. They have to stay on their toes, no matter what you know. So I think that's it's, it's definitely.
Speaker 2:You have to do that all around the course and you just can't get too um you know complacent. You definitely have to be aware.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's walk. And how about the first time you walked, from the back of the 15th green to the 16th tee?
Speaker 2:Well, again, it's a lot like rounding, you know, the corner on 15. I mean, the buildup is tremendous and you just kind of start to see it through the cypress trees and everything. And it's just incredible Once you come around the corner and you see that you're just, you, just blown away. I mean it's, it's the greatest, uh, golf hole in the world.
Speaker 2:I mean it's the most beautiful, it's the most iconic, it's, it's it's unbelievable and uh, you know, definitely you have a lot of thoughts when you're hitting that in that shot and you're trying to clear all that water and, uh, you always feel like it's the longest carry too, if it's two, 20 or two, 30, you always feel like it's uh, you know, like you're adding 20 and aim for the back bunker and it's never been raked. So it's long, uh, and it's just so much fun. It's just, uh, just the most beautiful hole and but, as we said before, if it's really windy or rainy or you know you get some, some tough weather, you can always go out to the left and play golf over there.
Speaker 2:So there's always an option over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what Nathan's talking about, there is a layup option off that tee. Typically it's about 230 ish, it's, it's, it's all. Carry over the Pacific Ocean. There is a bunker that's short and then there's also a bunker that's left that actually can help some, you know, if a player over-accelerates and they hit it over into that left. There is a left bunker and there are two beaches there's one one that's short, right and there's a beach that's left that will be in the hazard or, sorry, the penalty area and, uh, if a player has a lie, that's serviceable enough, it's. That could also add some excitement where he can go down there and potentially get the ball up and down for par sure, yeah, I mean, that's that's the genius of it.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think there's a little false front there they have to be respectful of, so you have to get it to the green. But again, that's the genius of it, you have options. You can always play. If something would happen, if your opponent might go in the water or something, you could do, that go in the water or something you could you could do that. Um, but again, if the conditions are bad, you can play over there.
Speaker 1:But again it's, it's definitely a shot that you have to stand on and probably hit one of the best of the day there to find, to find the surface, you know, and uh for, for those who don't know that that hole was designed, actually designed by Marion Hollins. We've talked about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, originally it was going to be a part of four and she just kind of set it down and just hit it right on the green and said you know, I think, I think, boys, this can be it, this can be a part three, let's go.
Speaker 1:you know, yeah well, I mean that's, that's, that's pretty special. Hall of famer, hall of famer, hall of famer, and uh, pretty cool, and uh, you know. Again, shout out to Mr Dick Barrett for that Hall of Fame acceptance speech on her behalf. It was phenomenal. So shout out to Mr B for that one. So let's get to the 17th hole. The 17th hole is one of the most interesting golf holes that I've ever seen in my life. It's a relatively, would you say, short par four with a grove of trees that are virtually in the middle of the fairway. And the second shot, the hole wraps around the Pacific coast. So the whole right side of the hole is the ocean rocks. So the whole right side of the hole is the ocean rocks, I mean. And then you have the big Sur mountain range and coastline in the background. I mean it's just insane.
Speaker 2:Well, that that is you know, if you really look at that hole, it's just it's. We've said it, we've used the word genius all day. But that is amazing that you could say if that holes, you know 370, 380, 390 and you know it could be played with. You know, at times if that pins on the left side you might have to hit an iron and be short of the grove there and and kind of then play for position on the green. Or you know, if you want to try to hit driver past the left, but if you come out of it, you know and go in that grove you're going to be in real trouble. So again it's. But if you're downwind you can try to hit it past everything. But again, if you don't get it kind of on the right side there and there's a tucked pin, you could be in trouble.
Speaker 1:So it's just another genius design that he's come up with. So there is a potential that the USGA is going to move the tees up for one round to make it a risk-reward drivable par four, I think. From the forward tees it's about a 303 to 308 carry, as you know, as the crow flies.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure it's, it's long. I mean, that's the thing I always feel like. When you say it's a 303 carry at Cypress Boyd, I feel like that could be 320 anywhere else, right, like it's tough uh to really, you know, you always feel like you can add 10 or 15, but that that's going to be exciting when they do that 10 or 15, but that that's going to be exciting when they do that um and uh, that that I'm sure you'll see some guys you know kind of have a go there possibly that's going to be really interesting, especially if the usga puts the pin well over kind of short right, not too far past the swale.
Speaker 1:You know just the visual of how that's going to look from the player's perspective from the tee. It's going to be out of this world because it's going to look like the pins out on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Sure sure?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think that's going to be exciting. I mean to go from 16 to 17 and possibly have that tee up is just going to be, I think, to be a golf fan or be watching or to be there. It's just going to be that people are going to be really spoiled with the show. That kind of Cypress and probably these two teams put on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, without a doubt. And let's get to the 18th hole a short par four uphill dogleg right. I personally on a personal note, nathan I have really grown to appreciate this hole. When I first started being around Cypress years ago, I didn't think that that hole was that great, but now I have really grown to appreciate the genius behind it, the intention, because it is a golden age golf course. Those golf courses were designed more toward match play and it took a few years for me to get it and now I absolutely get it. So I mean, the hole on the card is like 346 yards or something like that. But again, that's kind of a misnomer, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Well, it's uphill, it's to the right and really off the tee there If they're going to play the back tee.
Speaker 2:You really, you know you can probably only hit a 220 or so and you really have to honestly kind of control it off the tee and you feel like at times you need to put it on a kind of a picnic blanket out there to have a really, you know, good shot where you don't have to fight the trees or, you know, on the right or left, because it's, because it's it's great.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you get out there and you maybe hit it a little too far through the fairway and then you kind of have to hoist one over that tree, um, and get the ball in the air in a hurry. Or if you come up kind of short, right, you need to negotiate the trees, you know on the right, so it's just a genius design and, um, the green sloped hard, you know back to front, so, uh, and it feels like you have to be very accurate, you know, on that shot, because it's not a very wide green but definitely the t-shot sets up, sets up that hole, no doubt about it you know it's interesting, it's been controversial what people say.
Speaker 1:You know, jim, jimmy DeMeritt was quoted as saying Cypress Point's the greatest 17-hole golf course in the world and a lot of the old school guys didn't like it for whatever reason, because you had to navigate the trees and whatnot. But again, a well-positioned tee shot is going to avail itself to really making a go at any of the hole locations. So it's not unfair and I think that I remember hearing a member once say would 18 get the criticism that it's gotten if it were in the middle of the golf course? So I thought that was an interesting comment.
Speaker 2:That is interesting. That is interesting. I think it's always tough to you know it's a fun hole, but but honestly I mean I'm not sure after 15, 16 and 17,. You know where do you even? Where do you even go from there? The greatest three stretch, uh, three stretch. You know holes in golf, so it's just, it's incredible. Um, what an incredible club and what an incredible course. So much fun to play.
Speaker 1:Let's wrap up the golf course with the 18th green. We just got done with the Amateur Olympic. Those surfaces are pretty damn hard. I mean some of the toughest surfaces, if not the toughest surfaces, I've ever putted on were at Oakmont where the US Open was this year. And I mean I would say that the 18th green at Cypress Point, especially given the speeds that the greens are going to be, it's got to be one of the hardest greens in the game.
Speaker 2:It's just brutal yeah, I think it's, yeah, I mean it's, it's tough, I mean it's like you really have to get you know kind of the distance control there, because you know if you're above the pin, you know you're in trouble. Uh, it's fast from, you know, uh front to back, but even if you're a little past it and a little further to the right, like you said, if you're not able to put it in the right spot off the tee and you can't negotiate it, it's tough. You could, you could, um, you know false front, but it's hard from back to front and you could have a real swinger of a pot, even if you're just, you know, probably 10 feet past the pin or so uh, to the right or left. So it's, it's extremely challenging and, uh, you know, just amazing there, with the, with the clubhouse there, the American flag and everything. I'm sure that'll be an incredible amphitheater too, with, uh even seeing in some video in the 81 Walker cup and uh, everybody was kind of around there and everything. So that'll be just an amazing finish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean you and I are both blessed, beyond blessed, to be a part of this golf course, be a part of the graciousness of the membership, the graciousness of the USGA. I mean you being selected as captain, nathan being a part of it. I mean, what has this meant to you being a part of Cypress Point, being a captain of the greatest amateurs in the world?
Speaker 2:Well, it's been everything. To me it's the biggest honor of my life. I mean playing on teams. You never know if you're going to be able to make a team you have to be one of the top 10, you know amateurs, you know in the United States, which is really tough to do, and then you know to be kind of, be asked to be a captain where they're really only a handful of captains still living. Um is incredible, um biggest honor in my life to to be asked to be that.
Speaker 2:And then when you find out it's at Cypress Point, greatest golf course in the world, most beautiful, iconic. But probably, like yourself, I'm blown away with everybody that I've met at Cypress Point. The members are greater than the golf club. They're the most gracious, generous, incredible people that I've ever met in my life and I can't tell you how fortunate and blessed I am. And I'd say you know the USGA, they always seem to find incredible golf clubs. But I think I would say Cypress Point kind of wanting to do this. I think you start to see, just, you know that I think other clubs will kind of you know, kind of follow in line that they want to do this. I think you see the US Women's Mid-Am, then in October maybe at MPCC. I think you're starting to see other clubs kind of step up and that just shows that you know, kind of Cyprus has kind of led the way with that. But again I feel so, so blessed and honored and to be asked and then to be met so many incredible people at Cyprus, and again they've just been incredible to myself and I know that. You know, I think guys on both teams will feel that in the matches.
Speaker 2:I think that you know one of the biggest things in the Walker Cup is it's, you know, everybody wants to win and I think that the guys, both teams, are going to have the greatest experience of their lives with Cypress Point and just you know how they'll be treated and everything, and the members are a big part of that. You know how they'll be treated and everything, and the members are a big part of that. So again I feel so, you know, kind of honored and humbled and blessed to be a captain, let alone at Cypress Point. Really it's been the best two years of my life and we really haven't even played yet. So I'm just so excited for the guys and to have really the best week of their lives.
Speaker 2:And also I think that you know I think Cypress Point has been such a you know it's the greatest golf club in the world but it's been kind of a hidden gem for the last 40 years.
Speaker 2:You know it had the Walker Cup there and the Clambake, but I think people are just going to be blown away seeing it, you know, whether in person, or you know with what they can do with, you know high def TV or drones. I just think it's going to be one of the greatest Walker Cups ever and I think I think it says a lot that you know I know the USGA has had the most, you know requests for tickets from alumni and previous Walker Cup hosts with golf courses and kind of denomination, previous Walker Cup hosts with golf courses and kind of denomination. So I think that speaks to the reverence that Cypress Point has and how people really everybody wants to be a part of it in every way. So it's really, and being the 50th, I just think it's going to be just just an incredible Walker Cup that everybody will kind of remember forever.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I can add any more to that, my friend. I mean you spoke for both of us there. I do want to reiterate what you said about the golf course and the members. It's one of the only golf courses that is in this echelon where the members are better than the golf course. I mean that's saying a lot and I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2:Well, it is. It is and you know it, you've been out there for a long time Just the most incredible people in the world and, like I said, I feel like I've made some friendships there that, you know, mean the world to me, um, you know as well as yourself and uh, it's just, it's just been, uh, it's been incredible for me. I feel so lucky to have uh been a part of it and uh, you know, I know, like you know, just to kind of reiterate, I know that guys, everybody involved is going to feel that. That's how they make people feel there and I think that's going to be special and it's honestly heaven on earth.
Speaker 1:So, again, just honored to be the captain this year and going to be a lot of fun. Nathan, I can't thank you enough. I can't thank you enough for you being the USA captain. I can't thank you enough to be, for being a friend and and just what you've contributed to golf and along with your illustrious career, which we'll talk about again and another, another time, another episode. I can't thank you enough. I'm honored to be a part of this whole thing and again, in closing, I want to thank the members at Cypress Point for making this happen and the US shit.
Speaker 2:It's going to be cool. I think it's going to be exciting for them to kind of see this dream become a reality in the next few weeks, and we're all fortunate that they did this. So it's great, we're looking forward to it and, again, it's going to be just the best week of our lives, so we can't wait, hear hear.