Flag Hunters Golf Podcast

From LPGA Winner To Performance Coach: Sandra Gal On Mastering Golf’s Inner Game

• Jesse Perryman

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We explore how an LPGA winner turned performance coach builds elite mental skills through attention, breath, and state. Sandra Gal shares tools to stop overthinking, train presence, and let go of outcomes while playing with more freedom and joy.

• update on Justin’s new base at Hidden Castle Golf Club
• Sandra’s path from Germany to LPGA champion
• discipline versus talent and finding balance
• college breakthrough and early mindset habits
• why overthinking derails and how to return to the body
• surrendering outcomes and focusing on process
• meditation, breath work, and heart coherence
• quiet eye research and practical gaze control
• reframing bad thoughts under pressure
• visualization, manifestation, and shot planning
• slumps, resilience, and redefining success
• Sandra’s coaching offers, community, and retreat

Please rate, review, and subscribe.
So if any of you are visiting Singapore, kindly DM  Justin on Instagram @elitegolfswing, and we will arrange a meeting. 
  To find out how to work with Sandra, you can also DM her on Instagram @thesandragal. 


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To find Justin best, please find him on Instagram @elitegolfswing or email him, justin@elitegolfswing.

To find Jesse best, also find him on Instagram @flaghuntersgolfpod or TEXT him, (831)275-8804.

Flag Hunters is supported by JumboMax Grips and Mizuno Golf

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome once again to another edition of the Flaghunters Golf Podcast. I'm your host, Jesse Perryman, along with my co-host Justin Tang, which is worthy of an announcement. He is moving on from the Tanamera Golf Club in Singapore. While he still is will remain in Singapore, he now is the lead instructor for Hidden Castle Golf Club. So those are who are longtime listeners and who know Justin, he is moving on to a different opportunity. However, he still will be available for all those who are interested in either seeing him in person in just in Singapore, excuse me, or uh having lessons from him online. And all of those links will be in the show notes as they usually are. And this week, without further ado, is tour player Carl Peterson. Carl originally is from Sweden, however, spending the majority of his youth and growing up in Northern California, or excuse me, North Carolina, and played on the PGA tour for many years, won five times out there. And those who know, he his golf swing was really cool. He had one of the one of the really good and interesting golf swings out there. And uh interestingly enough, as you listen, he's completely self-taught. Uh a self-driver, self-taught, self-technician, uh self-motivated, and he explains it in the conversation. So I don't want to give uh too much away here, but I I really I know that Justin and I both really enjoyed this conversation. And Carl says a lot and explains it uh clearly and in some pretty darn good detail, and there's a lot of low-hanging fruit the rest of us can get from this great, great, great player. Yeah, without further ado, here's the main body of the podcast. I'm gonna kindly ask again to please rate, review, and subscribe. Justin and I love to listen and hear about uh get some feedback, and any feedback is is fantastic. And also, too, don't be afraid to message us. If there's anybody that you'd like to have on that we can uh uh uh possibly get on, feel free to fire us a message. Uh my my contact information will be in the show notes as well as Justin's, and I hope everybody enjoys this episode with one of the greats. Carl Peterson, thanks again for tuning in and cheers, everyone, and have a blessed week. Along with my co-host, my fellow commiserator, seeker in this game, Justin Tang. Justin is in Singapore. And Justin, quickly, tell us the new location that you're at.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm based at the Hidden Castle Golf Club. So if any of you are visiting Singapore, just hit me up, DM me on Instagram at EliteGolfSwing, and we will arrange a meeting.

SPEAKER_01:

And we'll have all the show notes. Uh, we'll have all of Justin's new information in the show notes. But uh, you know, without further ado, we've got a very special guest, uh, somebody that I got to spend the day with quite a few years ago. LPGA tour player winner, and now uh transitioning into performance coaching. Her name is Sandra Gall from Germany to the LPGA tour to Florida. Sandra, welcome and thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome, Sandra. For the sake of our listeners who are not familiar with you, could you just give us an introduction into how you got into the game of golf?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, sure. Um, both my parents play golf, so I just tagged along and I like driving the golf cart. That was my first uh yeah, first driving point. And then um, yeah, by the time I was 14, you know, someone said I had some talent and I started practicing. So before that was just kind of playing during holidays, vacations, so kind of late actually. And um yeah, and then when I was 19 and uh I went to college to University of Florida, so that's when I moved from Germany to the US.

SPEAKER_02:

At what age did you know that hey, this is things are getting serious? It was where you went like I'm good at this.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I would say my second year in college. Yeah, I was good before, but I was not good enough to turn pro. And so going to college gave me an opportunity to have an education and also give myself a chance to get better. And um by my second year, I started winning college tournaments and I could kind of see myself being on tour.

SPEAKER_02:

So, what did you study in college?

SPEAKER_00:

Advertising.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so a lot to do with the human mindset. How do I get someone, how do I influence people essentially?

SPEAKER_00:

That was not why I was attracted to it. I wanted to study art or design, and so they didn't have that at University of Florida, and so my attraction was being creative and um kind of making art.

SPEAKER_02:

So you talk about being creative in the world of coaching, as you would have realized by now, it takes a lot of creativity to say the same thing five, six, eight different ways to the same person.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's very true. You must have a lot of experience with that.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh unfortunately, uh, this is my 20th year teaching. So yeah, I've gone through uh a lot of I've kissed a lot of frogs, but uh it it's it's uh been a fantastic learning journey as you would have discovered. You know, you talked a little bit about talent. Can we talk about discipline versus talent in the journey to realize your potential?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um, I mean, they both go hand in hand. One doesn't go without the other. I think that discipline was probably one of my strongest attributes I had when I was growing up. Um I had I was very um very, very driven and disciplined when it came to practice and schoolwork and all of these things. I um and I think it's something that creates structure also in your mind. And um uh it's it's just vital to uh have discipline because that's what you need, not just in terms of practice, but in terms of also focusing your mind and um staying present during the golf, during a round of golf.

SPEAKER_01:

Certainly. Were were you influenced by Longer, by Bernhard Langer growing up in Germany?

SPEAKER_00:

Unfortunately, not very much. I met him later, um, probably after I won on tour. That's when I met him. But he's the epitome, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I mean the the German stereotype is everyone's very engineered, very structured. That's why you've got fantastic brands like Bosch, BMW coming out from your from uh Germany. Yeah, my do you feel that there's some kind of uh influence in from that culture?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not sure. Uh so my parents are Czech and I grew up in Germany, so um I don't really have deep German roots at all. I just grew up in the culture, and I feel like I'm a really strong mix of both, being kind of a free spirit and very creative, but also able to be disciplined when I have to. And sometimes I have a face when one takes over and then another takes over. But definitely during those years when I was trying to become the best I could be, there was a lot of discipline and maybe not enough play and creativity. Where then I had to learn how to balance those two things.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we talk about balance. Jesse and I always talk about there is golf is a game of black and white, and then sometimes there are 50 shades of gray in the middle. It's always about staying in balance, and sometimes balance means you tilt towards one end of being free and creative, and then sometimes it means sticking to a plan.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I want to ask you, right? You you know, you said when you started winning college tournaments, you felt that you were ready to take the next step up to the pro ranks. Can you talk a little bit about the your mental gain when you were winning on college and when you decided to make that move? Was that something that you focused on a lot?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I definitely had a tendency always to overthink. So there was a big focus on which I wasn't really that good at at the time, but I was trying to always get towards the direction of kind of seeing it, hitting it, you know, not thinking, but playing. So there was a big focus on that. Um and I think I had kind of at that time I had like a natural conviction that you know I would do well. It was just kind of like an inherent, you know, drive of knowing I will I will be really good at this. So then at some point you need to I had to cultivate that to step up in the next level, right? On the LPGA. But on the college level, it sort of was enough of what I had. Um but I definitely remember, I definitely remember being very focused at what I was doing, very focused on the target, and um yeah, trying to kind of minimize the thinking.

SPEAKER_02:

You know how big is the gulf in the mental game? How good how good mentally are those girls are the girls on the LPGA tour?

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I I think the mental game is everything, you know. I think we all know that most people that come to the to a tour to the best tour in the world, that they are hitting the ball fairly similarly, and then the mental game is what makes the biggest difference. Um and so there's still a massive difference between the person obviously who's in the top 10 mentally and the person who is you know number 100 on the rankings. There's a huge difference, and I think there's many factors that come into that.

SPEAKER_02:

You Jesse was telling me that you're making the transition to becoming a performance coach. Could you share with our listen our listeners and potential clients on this podcast how your strong playing career would benefit you in your future endeavor as a performance coach?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think so. What I struggled with the most being a tool professional, that I had a hard time finding people that could really help me with my struggles. And so I kind of ventured off and read a lot of different books, whether it was from Zen, whether it was Manifestation, whether it was um, you know, Eckhart Tolly or, you know, staying present. Um I mean, I you name it, I read it. And I really tried to figure out how to deal with my or was looking for ways how to deal with my own demons. So I feel like everything that I've learned mentally is kind of my own sweat and tears. It's not something that I've just, I mean, I read it back then, but then I tried to really implement those principles that weren't even written for golf. You know, all of the things around letting the outcome go, letting, you know, the game kind of play through you, getting out of your mind into your body all these different concepts. Um, I kind of lived and breathed them on the golf course and in tournaments and under pressure. And I figured out which things really work and which don't. And I'm also aware that certain things work for some people and for other people they don't, or they didn't even need it, right? Because every single person is also born with a different set of beliefs. And those beliefs, those subconscious beliefs, they really shape kind of your your upper limit or the the way you perform. And so there's many different aspects to it. But I think one of the things that I love the most about coaching is that I've lived it. And then I can really give people a lot of practical, specific examples and not so much kind of like a phrase, you know, like go and use this phrase, uh, you know, trust yourself, or you know, kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Which largely doesn't work, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. That's what I struggled with the most, yeah. When people gave me phrases and concepts versus actually embodying something.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, go ahead, Justin.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry about Sandra. Can you run us through a typical coaching session or phase with your players?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Um usually we have you know a series of coaching calls, and um it depends on the level of the player and the depth they want to go to. You know, some people really want to work more on um, I would call it, you know, maybe not superficial, but you know, like top like the top-level things, which are kind of course management and short game and um how to practice more efficiently. And these things are very, very valuable for a lot of people and make a big change. But then I get really excited about players who say, you know, I always encounter this one thing mentally, and what do I do about this? And then giving them a plan of what they can do every day, especially off the golf course, um, to you know, reprogram their mind and uh learn to show up differently to the golf course.

SPEAKER_01:

That's well said. Sandra, you mentioned something about overthinking, which I think um that afflicts a lot of players, a lot of good players, especially, and it kicks them out of the present moment.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh you know, how how can we overcome that? You know, especially in competition under duress, uh, and this is kind of a deeper multi-layered question. And it and it and it it comes with okay, overthinking might be a result of maybe a maladaptive belief.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, definitely. So we can just put that aside. I mean, that's definitely 100% true. Um, but if you want it, if you if you don't try to address that really deep root, which we can come to later, but just want to address the simple overthinking, a lot of what what I teach is coming back into your body. You know, how can you efficiently come back to your body uh and and place and be able to hold your focus there while your mind is trying to pull you somewhere else, right? So uh practically that looks like um you can be focusing like in between shots, you know, can really be focusing on you know your feet, your your legs, you know, really bring your attention down. You can even feel the ground under your feet, you know, really wherever your focus goes, your attention goes, your energy flows. Really good saying. So if you keep ruminating in your mind, you know, all your energy is stuck up here, and you can't even properly access the one instrument that you need to play good golf. Um, and when we're talking about staying out of your mind during the swing, it really is about kind of micro-focusing on simple things like grip pressure or you know, how does impact feel? What does impact feel like? You know, really specific, specific things. Um and that has a great benefit because not only does it keep you out of overthinking, but it keeps you very focused on the task at hand. And so your mind don't doesn't run into doesn't run away with thinking about where's trouble or how do I get to my backswing?

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, Justin?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, do you do you work with your players on technique at all?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I do, but mostly short game. Um I do some bits with a swing, but my real focus and real passion is definitely the performance part and going deep into that.

SPEAKER_02:

So the the performance part has been I guess criticized by in by some camps as being not quantitative. So it's not like I can put a trackman on you and say, oh no, you have positive thoughts, negative thoughts. I understand the focus band, but generally speaking, there is no quantitative uh measure for a good shot, a good mental game, poor mental game. Like what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_00:

Um I would say the criticism comes from a place of control and trying to quantify something you cannot quantify.

SPEAKER_02:

That's that's really amazing. I think people keep think keep trying to control outcomes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, oh, I hit a great shot, but it didn't land next to the the pin. Uh well, you know, there's crosswinds there. There are a lot of things, environmental changes that that most of us are are probably not aware of. Uh people try to not just control outcomes of shots, but they try to control other people. And I think if you're of that personality where you try to control your husband or wife for that matter, or or friends, then it kind of seeps into other parts of your life. In this case, your game of golf.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think a lot of the golf industry, I mean, we're all we're kind of obsessed with results. And you know, and that's the big, big paradox, right? Because the more we're obsessed with results, the less we're gonna get them. So a big part of the performance, enhancing your performance, again, we're talking about it, is to surrender your result thinking, is really to surrender some to surrender control, to surrender outcome. And only then can you actually access a state that's very conducive to playing your best game. Right? Like the the flow to being in the zone, you really can only get there once you become so present and you really let go of the outcome. And so that's not something you can quantify. There's just certain um things you can do to prepare to get into this kind of flow, but you cannot grasp it by the neck and say, you know, you're coming here now in whole three.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Uh hang on a sec, Justin. I wanted to comment on that, Sandra, as far as surrendering control. And a lot of people would say, okay, that makes sense intellectually, Sandra, but how how do I do that? How do I get how how can I train my nervous system to get into that place of surrender?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, as someone who always tried to control everything on the golf course, I can tell you the surrender control. I was always trying to figure out what do how do I actually do it. And just the example I gave you earlier, with really intentionally putting your focus somewhere, it that's kind of channeling your control elsewhere. You're really trying to control your mind and your thoughts and your focus. Like that's where you should put your control into. And once you can really master that and say, during this one shot, all I'm gonna care about is how firm I'm gripping this club or or how I'm you know being kind of one with a target. That's all I'm gonna focus on. And I don't care where the ball goes. Like that's in action, surrendering the outcome.

SPEAKER_02:

But it takes time, it takes practice.

SPEAKER_00:

This doesn't happen, it takes a lot of practice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, most most people want to want to see instant results, and I think that's because of the society we live in. You you want some food? Well, just hit up Uber Eats. Yeah, you want you want uh this Amazon Prime, then also there's something called dollar golf swing, Sandra. Dollar mental game. Just take out your iPhone and order it, it comes in uh what 30 minutes, or you get your money back. Yeah, so I I think modern society has kind of uh given us a false impression of what it needs to take, uh what it takes to succeed at the highest level, not just for golf, but for other endeavors as well. There's this uh 10,000-hour rule. Some people say it's true, some people say it's slightly less or slightly more. But I think the print the overarching principle is this if you want to be good at your craft, you need to grind away at it.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed.

SPEAKER_02:

And how do you how do you help your players understand that it's a process of time? Given the elite players that you work with, it's understandable that a lot of them are quote unquote impatient. Could you speak to that with uh your experience as a high-level player as well?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it takes a lot of patience and it's again kind of the journey, you know, it's not in getting that result that you want to get to very fast, it's also the journey that you embark on and you know the person that you become while you're while you're doing this kind of practice, right? Because maybe it is it does take doing meditations every single day uh to be able to get familiar with your mind, right? And that's a practice that will be enormous for your golf game, but it doesn't happen overnight. So but while you're doing it, I think you'll notice benefits in all other areas of your life. So it just really depends on the person if they're committed to real growth or if they just want this one result in their life very fast.

SPEAKER_02:

So you talk about meditation. Could you expound on it? Like how what do you teach your players?

SPEAKER_00:

Um I a lot of people that I work with have never done meditation before. So I kind of give them like a mini homework of meditation, a kind of like a short version for them to get their feet wet. And I think even a small amount is of big benefit if you do it consistently. Uh so it looks different for everyone, but it's what's I would say it's a mix of just classic, you know, sitting still, observing your mind meditation. It could be breath work, it could be a lot of what I love is doing heart um breathing, kind of like the heart math institute, you know, that creating these coherent states that you then take to the golf course. And then it's really easy then, not easy, but it's easier then to get back into the state when you fall out of it on the golf course. So that's a huge part of what I teach is um that people are not aware of that you don't leave your state that in which you arrived at the golf, you don't leave it to chance. You create your state of mind, you create your state of being, your coherence between your heart, your mind, your emotions. So that's a big part.

SPEAKER_02:

You talk about states. So it would be easier for guys that have won multiple times to recreate the state of accomplishment, of confidence. Could you speak to the guys who are looking to break through for their first win? Not quite there yet. Yeah. How can they rev their state up to this is my day, I'm gonna win?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm not trying to usually rev anyone up. Um, I'm honestly trying to create wholesome states that lead to a higher chance of getting into the zone. So these are usually states of gratitude, states of love and gratitude. If you're in that state, um, your whole being becomes very coherent, your mind becomes coherent, more quiet, and it is a lot easier to make good swings in that state. Like your body just functions like on a whole new level. Like you're able to access your inherent athleticism a lot easier when you're in this kind of coherent state. So that would be one part. And then if someone hasn't won before, of course, I tell them, not on the golf course, but off the course, to also imagine what it would feel like to have already won. So if you keep wanting something, it's always in the distance in the future. But if you imagine you've done it already, that's like a manifestation practice.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00:

But the big difference is that you need to arrive that day willing to just lose it all. Willing to not win, willing to just, you know, play your heart out and not care what happens. You can do all that practice before, but you come out there, you get into a great state, and you don't care about the result. That's the key.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's really high confidence, zero expectations, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's always that paradox in golf.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's powerful, Sandra. That's very powerful. My teacher says, Jess, you have to be willing anytime you step on the first T and accept the fact that you could shoot 66 or you could shoot 76.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Can I tell you a funny story? So when I won uh in 2011 on the LPGA tour, I remember going into the last round and I told myself, I'm I'm gonna hit my absolute best shot. I mean, from the beginning of the tournament, actually, I'm gonna hit my best shot right here. But I also don't mind if I'm gonna shoot 80. I can finish last. You know, I was leading and I said, I'm gonna accept finishing last, and I ended up winning. This is the biggest surrender and acceptance I've ever had during a tournament.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. You know, you talk about surrender, people talk about bad thoughts, but there is the thought itself and how it is thought about. So I'll give you an example, right? Leading in a tournament, last hop, one shot lead, just make part, you're home free, and then there's water left, OB, right. Your brain goes, don't hit it in the water, don't hit it in the water. So that's the process of thinking the bad thoughts. But now, take that same situation, three of us playing, just having a giggle. I'm like, look, I'm gonna have a bad thought. Justin, don't hit in the the uh water on the left. But I'm doing it in such a playful, such a nonchalant manner that the chances of that happening is almost zero.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Hit a nice fit. So going back to what you you talked about wholesome, that state kind of negates all the bad thoughts you can have in the world. And we will always have bad thoughts, right? That's how the brain's wired to think to protect us. And I really like how you elegantly put a put uh being uh grateful for things and how how it keeps you wholesome. In in my way of thinking, I I like to say wholesome as being on an even keel. Like what focused band would say low-intensity brain waves. Yes, kinda, yeah, like you got all these thoughts flying, but I think the key is you don't take those thoughts and hang on to it. And you can't do that unless you are in a wholesome state of mind.

SPEAKER_01:

I gotta I gotta add to that, and then Sandra, I want to get your opinion on that because what Justin, what how I'm translating it and what we're talking about here is creating the beautiful space between stimulus and response and the emotional charge that comes with it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So for you know, for example, you you've got water on the left and you've got Obi on the right, like a typical Florida course. There's water everywhere, and there's out-of-bounds everywhere. And how can the eye see that, but not accept the emotional potential charge that might be with, you know, maybe uh, you know, uh what would Henry call it, Henry Bolton, time traveling into the future of the what-ifs. So, how can we create that space between potentially what could happen and being here in the now and not accepting any emotional charge that may or may not come from that particular thought?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, there's many different answers to this, and they all come together. So, one is definitely a practice of meditation which slows down the stimulus and response, right? So we learn to observe and let go and not get caught up in the story of the thought, right? That's the practice and meditation. You see a thought and you might start a story and then you remember you're meditating and you come back to the present. So the practice is to come back, to come back, to come back. Meditation is not sitting there in a blank state of mind like a Buddhist monk. Most of us can't do that, but it's, you know, how do I bring myself back? Um, the second thing is then taking this and practicing this on the golf course, um, where you experience the thought and you manage to pull yourself back into the present and hit a good shot. So create you create positive experiences that you can anchor for all the next coming rounds. So the more you're able to not attach a negative emotion to that thought, but say, Oh, I've had this thought before and I hit a good shot, it becomes not as threatening. Right. And then sometimes I took it even a step further. This is really hard, but um when I had that thought, I said, Thank you. You just reminded me to, you know, really focus on my grip pressure.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

So I use the thought actually as a help. The bad, the bad thought, like you know, quote unquote, it doesn't have to be bad, is a thought to remind me that I was lost in my thought and come back to the present moment. So that actually helped me play better.

SPEAKER_02:

It's it's interesting you you mentioned that it's about interpreting the thought, right? And at different times of our round, different thoughts would be interpreted differently. Like if you're playing really well, like oh, don't hit in the water, like yeah, whatever, stripe it down the middle. But if you're under pressure, then your interpretation of that thought changes. I often liken this to language. So I speak Chinese, both of you clearly don't. If I were to say something nasty to both of you while smiling, you'd be like, yeah, I don't know what he said, but it must be nice. But you see, it's the interpretation of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's true. That's true. I also like to add something to what you said about the emotional charge. So of course you can lower that emotional charge, right? With all these good experiences that you make. Um, but of course, the more pressure you have, the more there's sort of um this emotional charge in general, right? You you feel more pressure, you feel more anxiety, and you feel a lot of uncomfortable emotions, possibly. Um and then a big part of that is to accept that, that you have it, and then training your capacity to still keep your focus, even though you know you might be charged, you might be nervous, you might be sweating, you might be shaking, it could be anything, right? Um and I think that's where a lot of people will kind of drop out because they um they think or have this idea that you always have to be calm and collected. But that's not the fact. There might be rounds or holes, you are like that, but you know, if you're talking like Solheim Cup or Ryder Cup, you know, first T, I mean, no one's gonna show up there and be super calm and collected. Most of us are really nervous. And so how so it's just like, can I stay with this?

SPEAKER_02:

How do you how do you guys deal with that? Like playing at the highest level, Solheim Cup? How do you deal with the heavy hands, butterflies in the stomach, pumping heart? Can you give our listeners some practical tips to deal with such feelings in their monthly medal?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I I it's it's not nothing different than what I just explained. It's really your ability to focus in an adverse environment or adverse like feeling state that you are, maybe. So you're not fighting it, you're saying this is here, and I'm going to focus on my target. And that's so I have also this really nice um line that I read somewhere and then I and I brought it into golf and I loved it. I used it a lot um during my rounds that were when I was nervous. It's you just need to so the the line was from a book, I'm not sure which one it was, but it was kind of like the as long as you focus more on love than fear, love will win. And so I thought that in golf terms, you know, as long as my focus can be just a little bit more on the target than it is where I don't want to go, you know, my ball is going to the target. So even though there's all this noise and these emotions and this net anxiousness, you know, I know my mind is like locked in with the target. So um focusing despite what's what's happening in your body. But then of course, there's practical tips like taking deep, you know, out breath, taking longer out breath than your in-breath, like calming your system, right? There's also things you can do like um calming your eyes. So when you people talk, you know, you see them usually like looking everywhere and the eyes are moving because there's a lot of thoughts. But there's a lot of research um for top performing athletes across all sports that they have in their high flow moments, peak performance moments, their eyes are extremely still. So whether it's the tennis ball coming at you, whether it's you know you're over a putt, your eyes are just kind of very still and locked in. So those are things you can definitely practically do when you're very nervous, or just in general, to calm your mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Is that called quiet eye?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Quiet eye, yep. So so it's it's holding your gaze on something, right? Because where your eyes go, your mind goes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So even between shots, you know, looking at the top of a tree or a plate of grass. It's been very helpful.

SPEAKER_02:

I guess we need to write that down on a flashcard and put it in our bag.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, these are simple hacks that I think good players don't think about when they're in a slump. They always think that, oh, to get me out of a slump must be some kind of magical move on the downswing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

But oftentimes, like what the great Bobby Jones used to say, it's all between the ears.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

If you've got a big brain, it's six inches. If you've got a small brain, it's four inches between the ears.

SPEAKER_00:

Sometimes the small brain is easier.

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, it's interesting you make that comment. I've seen like really good players who don't really think much about the game. You look at their career, like, yeah, you know, it's nothing spectacular, but they don't really have this boom slump.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But the guys that seem to know every nuance of the golf swing, they know their force-plate uh numbers and ground reaction profiles, those guys seem to have bigger slumps, if you will.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Longer slumps.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02:

It seems that knowledge can be a double-edged sword.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but I've also noticed not the technical knowledge, but let's say someone who doesn't really think about their who has never really had a lot of slumps, let's say, in the beginning of their career, and they start winning and winning and winning, and all of a sudden they start thinking. Maybe they played kind of like autopilot, right? And they never really thought about the mental game. They were just blessed and confident. They had good belief systems, you know, good emotional resiliency. Then when they have a slump, it's very hard for them to come back because they never really learned the tools to deal with you know bad thoughts. So I've noticed players like that really kind of struggling. And then players who maybe know their mental game better, they have these little slumps, but they're they go more up and down in little waves.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's kind of like asking yourself the question when you're on uh lying on your bed. How do I fall asleep? That's a great way to state it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

How do I get myself to sleep? I want to make a comment on Scotty on Shuffler where he says it all the time. It's pretty funny. Scotty's a pretty switched-on guy, and he's extremely present. And he says it after everyone. Uh, I I just did a really good job this week of staying present. He says it all the time. I just I just stay present. Yet people want to talk about his footwork all the time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, um, but you know, he's the best player in the world, and there's the the low-hanging fruit. I mean, there's multi-levels to that, of course. But Sandra, I like what you said about meditation as a practice, something that we can do off the golf course. I'm a big advocate of that. It's helped my game, helped me personally in my life to um just to create that separation, you know, even if it's a nanosecond, instead of grabbing on to a thought. How many times in competition under duress do we have a negative thought and we grab onto it as if it were true?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

When when quite quite frankly, it's you know, I mean, pardon my French, but it's bullshit because it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, that we're grabbing on to it, and then we manifest it, and then the brain starts going into that cycle. See, see, I told you, see. So, I mean, this is all about getting ourselves away from that, but uh, I also want to comment on something, though, that that that Sandra said, as well as uh accepting the fact that we are gonna have bad thoughts, and you said it too, Justin, and not demonizing them, and just you know, you turned it around, Sandra, and embraced it and used it as a way to slap you back into present time focus.

SPEAKER_02:

So cool, what you just so cool what you just said, uh Jesse, in relation to what Sandra said. If you haven't won, think about what it would be like to have won. And what what you just described is a lot of amateurs actually doing what Sandra recommended, but in reverse gear, they act as though the bad shot already happened when it's not, and then they kind of live and walk into that almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now, if they were to take that ability to imagine and apply good scenarios to it, I think they will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right. Very well put.

SPEAKER_01:

So, Sandra, in your in your coaching practice, do you work with players on visualization and actually feeling something that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Um some people are better at visualizing, some people are better at just feeling some people do both. Um, everyone's different, has their own strength. Um, but yeah, you you need to create some sort of feel or vision before any kind of shot you you're gonna hit. Otherwise your body doesn't know what it's gonna do. I always say you can have the perfect swing, literally the perfect swing, but the ball's not gonna go to your target if you if you don't uh feel see it, if you don't feel it or see it. Uh even that perfect robot, you know, he doesn't hit it at the target every time. So it's very essential practice.

SPEAKER_01:

And that could be something that can be do uh can be done uh uh in alignment with meditation as well.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. So there's definitely the aspect of like doing it on the course, right, before a shot. And then there's a practice you do um off the golf course if you're serious about it and if you really want to take your game to the next level. Um, you know, there's pure meditation, which is really learning just to be present, and then there is manifestation, which is learning to get uh to feel the reality you want to go get to as if it happened already.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, just in closing Sandra, I wanted to ask you what does success mean to you today?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh well, something very different than it meant to me, you know, 15 years ago. Uh success right now means to me um being present, being grateful, uh really for a lot of little things in my life. Uh so you know, having a nice meal, you know, being with a person I love or going on a walk and seeing beauty around me. It's I really had to redefine it, and I still have to remind myself all the time of that because there's a part of me that hangs on to a small part of me, but it hangs on to, oh, you know, you should be defining success as how much money you make or how many wins you have. But at the end of the day, that's not what makes me happy. Like really being in a nice wholesome state and being able to be regulated and present, that's a huge success for me.

SPEAKER_02:

What what the Sandra is gonna I want to be remembered for in the in the world of golf.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd like to be remembered for someone who um looks at the game a little bit out of the box than maybe what most people look at it. Uh that brings a little bit of heart into the game and um hopefully some love too. You know, I think that for some part of my career I had this, this might come off a little bit strange, but I had this kind of idea that if I'm going to be running around chasing these results and playing with fear, that's very egotistical in a way. And I thought, how can I be in this game and play this game in a way that I can bring joy to others and that I can, you know, love my shots and just kind of be in this wholesome state that I explained to you. It's not just great for your game, it's really great for anyone that you encounter. You know, it's very contagious when you're in this beautiful state of gratitude, for example. So yeah, I just see it as this amazing instrument of growth, golf. You know, it's like a mirror to you. And so hopefully, yeah, I don't know, I can contribute in a little way that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Last questions, Jesse, for Sandra. I think Sandra has hit every question I've asked. My my only wish is uh that we bring her back and uh further go deep into this conversation because um Sandra, as I said to you before, and Justin and I talk about this all the time, this is a uh ever-evolving conversation that needs to flow uh in addition to all the technique stuff and all the uh the tangible stuff that we can work on uh with our golf games. This is uh a huge part of it, it's an important part, and and I'm gonna remind the listeners that all of the greats in golf encapsulated what we're talking about. They may have not talked about it, but I'm pretty sure Tiger Woods was pretty good at being in the present moment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you know, he used to say, right, all he remembered about a great shot was he took the golf club out of the bat. That's it. That's all he remembers when he was asked about some of the toughest shots he made in in uh his career. That was that was a bit mystical, I guess.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so uh Sandra, uh before before we let you go, can you tell our listeners where they can find out more about yourself and the services that you offer?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so um they can go. The easiest way is to go to my Instagram. It's the Sandra Gal. And there I have a link with all the different things that I offer. Um, I have an online golf community also um where I teach at. And I have my one-on-one coaching, and I'll also be doing my first ever in-person golf retreat next January. Right. So that'll be super fun. We'll be focusing on all the things that we talked about today. Uh, so um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Give Jesse all the details and then we'll be sure to add it into the show notes. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you, Sandra.