From Tour Wins To Teaching Mastery. A conversation with 3x Asian Tour winner Terry Pilkaderis

We sit down with three-time Asian Tour winner Terry Pilkadaris to explore how fundamentals, course awareness, and structured practice drive real scoring gains. The talk maps his rise, mistakes made chasing trends, and the simple systems he now teaches to players at every level.

• growing up with access to a course and early coaching
• why range work must give way to on-course learning
• wind, lies, grain, and shot choice as scoring levers
• parents, YouTube, and the myth of perfect swings
• handicap-based short game options and risk control
• grip, aim, and ball position before technical changes
• flat cut DNA vs forcing draws under pressure
• wedge distance systems and course fit realities
• measurable putting drills and written practice goals
• practical frameworks to break 100, 90, and 80

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, folks

For more information of Terry and how you can reach him, go to www.terrypilkaderisgolf.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Guest Intro, Big-Picture Theme
• 3:15 Early Golf Roots And First Lessons
• 7:05 Range Vs Course: Training That Transfers
• 12:45 Parents, YouTube Advice, And Fundamentals
• 18:45 Learning Speed: Kids, Adults, And Multi-Sport
• 24:50 Resilience And Golf’s Mental Pace
• 30:20 Course Awareness, Wind, Lies, And Options
• 41:50 Shot Selection By Handicap And TV Bias
• 49:00 Fundamentals First: Grip, Aim, Ball Position
• 57:45 Influences, Structure, And Pressure Practice
• 1:07:40 DNA Shots: Flat Cuts, Draw Debates, Monty

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello and welcome to another edition of the Flaghunters Golf Podcast. I am your host, Jesse Perryman, along with my co-host Justin Tang from the Hidden Castle Golf Club in Singapore. We welcome you to another edition. Our guest this week is a man by the name of Terry Pilcaderis, an Australian, three-time Asian tour champion, now a prominent golf coach. His information I will actually have on all the show notes is Terry Terry PilcaderisGolf.com. And uh his last name is spelled P-I-L-K-A-D-A-R-I-S. You know, uh what's interesting about this conversation with Terry is those of us that are in the in the U.S. uh are pretty insulated with who we know uh who can play. And you know, I at least for me, I forget that there's a a great big world out there with a lot of really, really good players that have uh incredible wisdom to share and who have been in the trenches, who have played for a living. Can you imagine if you play poorly, you're not paying your bills? I mean, it it just it still blows my mind with that realization. It's uh it it takes a special human to uh to reach that plateau, to pursue that, and to play golf at an incredible, in my opinion, insane level. And Terry reached that. And I've mentioned it before, and and I'll say it again, that when folks like Terry are teaching and they've been there at the highest level, and they've taken the necessary steps of ascension, and they've gone through the blood, sweat, and tears, they've gone through all of the psychological challenges, all of the self-doubt, the negativity, the failures, the three putts and crucial moments, and have taken that information and applied it to their toolbox to get to a level that a lot of us will never reach, and then to come back and teach that. That's a gift. That's an incredible, an incredible gift. And it's worth noting that I'm not saying that to become a good teacher, you have to go through that process. What I'm saying is that it's spicier, it adds another layer, at least for me, of trust, knowing that if I'm gonna listen to somebody like Terry or Bradley Hughes, a fellow Australian, or John Erickson, I know that they've been there. I know that they've experienced the process on a deeper level. So when folks like Terry are teaching out there, it's it's just a gift. And uh this was a great episode. I really enjoyed the conversation. We talked about his career, his ascension, his uh process. And uh this might be worth listening to multiple times. And we're gonna have Terry back on again. We're gonna talk mechanics with him. And if you look him up on YouTube, you'll see his golf swing and you'll realize that this guy had it and still has it where it counts. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe, folks. It's gonna be a great year. I hope everything is trending towards spring for everyone listening. Uh, that you're getting your bodies in shape, your minds right, your nutrition on point, your body mobile, flexible, and strong, and your mechanics on point. And we've got a lot of exciting guests coming on in the next eight weeks. I cannot wait. Uh, Justin and I are taking it to another level uh to help you and us really uh traverse this incredible, incredible journey uh in this game of golf. Cheers, everyone, and have a great week. Hello, welcome once again to another edition of the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. My name is Jesse Perryman. I am your host, along with my co-host and friend, uh leader of the Hidden Castle Golf Club in Singapore. His name is Justin Tang. Our guest today is Terry Pilcaderis, former Asian tour winner, great player, and now teaches. And we're gonna get his insights and we're gonna peg him for some questions because I always find it fascinating when former tour players get into the teaching space, they have a little bit of a different layer of knowledge to add, and we welcome that. Justin, thanks, bud. Terry, welcome. We really appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_03: 5:00

Appreciate the invite.

SPEAKER_02: 5:02

Hey, thanks, Terry. Sorry it took so long to uh get this together from uh the ISS in Tanamera to now, but uh I think our listeners are in for a treat. But we have introduction. How do you get into golf?

SPEAKER_03: 5:18

How did I get into golf? Well, when I was 13 years old, I remember uh I was with my brother, it was school holidays, and we're just sitting around and we'd go into the into the backyard. Dad's got a shed there and he had some clubs. So get the clubs out, we're on the front lawn just hitting some shots, and dad came out and said, Do you want to play golf? And I thought, uh, yeah, I wouldn't mind it. So we lived a mile from the golf club or a kilometer from the golf club. So he just gets in the car, drives up, sees the pro and he said, I've got two boys that want to play. I don't know what to do. And he's like, No, no problem. So first time I touched the golf club was that morning. An hour later, I was at the golf course hitting getting a lesson by the the local pro Jack Mills, um, and showed us the group, the stance, the basics, and uh off we went and I was hooked from then.

SPEAKER_02: 6:13

That's a very interesting point you mentioned, and I I see this commonality among really good players. They have air accessibility to infrastructure and be lots of time practicing on the field of play versus at the driving range. I mentioned this to to one of my students yesterday. I said, look, if you're going to be an Iron Man triathlete, you're not gonna be training in your bathtub. You're gonna be training in open waters. But golf, people have this idea that, oh, I don't want to pick up golf, I'm gonna get good at it, let's go to the driving range. But the driving range is 180 degrees diametrically opposed to the field of play.

SPEAKER_03: 7:05

Well, the driving range has its benefits, but also can have its hindrance. So when you're when you're you're starting out, you need to teach the basics. So you've got to make sure you've got the correct grip, stance, ball position, understand what impact feels like, um, and and go from there. And then you've got to transition across the golf course. Because you get on the golf course, you've got downhill lies, uphill lies, side hill lies, you've got winds, you've got obstacles in front of you. Um, it presents a whole different task. And I think nowadays too many people get focused hell bent on a driving range and hitting balls and trying to perfect the swing rather than trying to manage their way around a golf course and get the ball in the hole. Now, tournament golf, it's not about who's got the best looking swing, it's about who shoots the lowest score.

SPEAKER_02: 7:58

It seems that tournament pros and amateurs have different scorecards. The scorecards that tournament pros use have a small little box at the end of each hole that says score. So you write down a number. But amateur golfers are enamored with like who's my coach, what swing philosophy I'm using, what swing plane I'm using. They're so concerned about how they got the score rather than focusing on the score itself.

SPEAKER_03: 8:25

Yeah, absolutely. But um the the problem I think nowadays is well, there's so much access to YouTube, Instagram, and every coach is on there presenting their ideas and their theories on the golf game, and and straight away there those people are looking at it and then going to the driving range and going, I'm gonna try this. And then they get on the golf course and it doesn't work. Now there's not much instruction nowadays on you've got to manage your way around the golf course. Like as you said, with regarding like the island man, you can you don't train in your bathtub. You've got to train, if you're swimming out in the ocean, you've got to learn to swim against currents, against waves, whole bunch of things. So like if you're right running, you're not running on a treadmill, it's a whole different concept. So it's the same with the golf course. There's got to be a balanced act between a little bit of range, a little bit of playing. And at this stage, everyone, it it's tending to go way, way the other way, and it's all about the range and trying to perfect the swing.

SPEAKER_02: 9:37

And swing perfection, the amount of information that's available causes a lot of parents to think that they're the next uh teaching professional. I guess it's ridiculous how some parents, after watching some YouTube videos, think that they're the summation of golf swing knowledge, past, present, and future. I see them with folded arms behind their kids who has a 15 handicap telling them to do this and that. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03: 10:09

I think the best one's a guy comes in for a lesson, he's he can't hit it and he's struggling. He goes, Oh, one friend told me I'd keep my head down, the other one told me to keep my arms straight, the other one said I've got to swing into house. And uh and he goes, I'm all confused. And I said, Right, okay, so you gotta sit down and and I said, If you if you're if you're sick, do you ask your mates what's wrong? I said, if you've got some financial issues, do you do you ask your mates who are not financial advisors? And they're like, okay, good point. And uh so it's everyone's trying to pass on knowledge, they're all trying to help, but uh sometimes people just gotta stick in their lane.

SPEAKER_02: 10:53

That's true. I I think people often mistake uh intentions for good advice. Like you may you may be the most well-meaning person in the world, but that doesn't mean your information is going to change the golf string of the scores.

SPEAKER_03: 11:07

No, no, but I I I think in they're trying to help to to I think that the the good thing about it is people are going, well, I'm trying to give you to I'm trying to help you play better, which is which is a good thing rather than them just shutting up and not saying anything and watching them struggle and they go, here, try this. So you've got friends or family there wanting you to succeed and play better, which is which is a positive, but you've got to push it into a direction where they can go with someone who can understand the game, teach it, and get people playing well.

SPEAKER_02: 11:45

I want to go back to when you were 13 years old, back to those school holidays, right? So, how long did it take you to become good? And what was the process you took? Was it a guided was it a guided process, or you just somehow got good without really understanding why?

SPEAKER_03: 12:04

You uh people forget Tiger Woods, when he first started, would have topped the ball, shanked the ball, duffed the ball, right? All these top players, Scotty Sheffield would have done the same when he first played. He would have missed the ball a bunch of times, he would have hit the not picking up a club straight away, gripping it correctly and firing that thing. So everyone starts at it at the same level. Now, it's obviously yes, a skill level. Like being a tour pro, I use the nature. We're the one tour pros are the one percenters. Not uh we're the one percent of the golfing population. Yes, we're talented, we've got the ability, stuff like that. But we had to start somewhere. Now, everyone starts from a clean slate and they've got no idea. So, someone has to taught them how to grip it, how to stand, how to hit it. Now, some people's ability, they'll pick it up quicker, some people won't. So there's all these different learning abilities. But you're looking at two of pros, they are the best of the best. But the you get the misconception of of all that. So when I started, yes, I topped the ball, I thinned the ball, I shanked it, duffed it up, but I had some instruction. So the pro taught me this is your grip, this is your setup, this is what impact feels like. Starts off little shots and then built my way up. Like he didn't get me doing full swings. He said, swing the club back to hip height, swing through to hip height. Did you hit the ball? Yes or no? No, I missed the ball. Okay, so then he he he separates it. And we start with basics and went from there. And then I just went off and I went to the driving range, I hit some balls and did some practice, and then eventually I transitioned into playing on the golf course and kept going. But there's so many facets of the game. There's putting, chipping, bunkers, short irons, mid-irons, long irons, woods. So it was a matter of learning and and and practicing a little bit of all of them to get going. Now, if you get a kid to start practicing, they're gonna develop things quicker than an adult. And that's a big thing. So if you've got kids that are they're in the learning phase, they're they're absorbing, they can pick up languages quicker, they absorb everything a lot quicker. Whereas you get an adult who's a 60, hasn't done any sport for 40 years, hasn't even played golf, hasn't thrown a ball, caught a ball, hit a ball, done anything for 30 or 40 years, and you stick a golf club in his hand, well, he's gonna take a little bit longer than than an eight-year-old kid.

SPEAKER_02: 14:51

Let's talk about multi-sports. Did you specialise in golf early?

SPEAKER_03: 14:56

No, no. So I played everything. So I played I played soccer in winter, I played tennis in summer. But when we were growing up, we'd play everything. We played cricket, I played T ball, I played baseball, soccer, tennis, uh, AFL football. So I I played all sorts, but everything at school. So I remember primary school growing up, we're all playing sports, whatever sport it was. We're all every lunchtime we're out doing something, having fun doing different sports, and you try everything.

SPEAKER_02: 15:28

Here's the funny thing, a lot of kids that I know they want to specialize at eight years old. Or rather, the parents want them to specialize at eight years old. And then you kind of lose the ability for for multiplanar movement. Yep. Like if you're catching if you're playing AFL, right? Like some someone's someone's waiting to kick you in the nutsack, kick you in the legs, while you're waiting for the ball to be delivered from you running at the fastest pace as you can. Like you're building different parts of your hand-eye coordination. And I feel that parents kind of don't give the kids that that opportunity to develop those uh physical modalities. No, classic example.

SPEAKER_03: 16:13

So I've got two stepdaughters. One's a competitive gymnast, the other one's not very sporty or very academic. But the competitive gymnast wants to play Australian rules of football, wants to play netball, wants to give every sport a go. It's got hand-eye coordination. So both of them come down. I teach them, I teach them, give them the grip, the stance, everything the same. The younger one that does the gymnastics and all the sports gets it. Straight away. Gets it.

SPEAKER_02: 16:43

How old are they, just for reference?

SPEAKER_03: 16:45

15, 15, 17, but they we started, they started a couple of years ago.

unknown: 16:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 16:50

So it's 15-year-old now, the youngest one, she's got it. She gets it, understands it and goes, right, okay. And I've I've off she's gone. Whereas the the older one doesn't do any ball sports, does a bit of ballet, but that's the only sporting activity. And a little bit of netball, but doesn't quite have that ability to play. But again, it's she's not doing the as you said, she's not doing the multi-sports, she's not, she's not doing all the different activities. And that's a big one. I remember Greg, uh Greg Ankertell up in Singapore, he's now back down in my good friend of mine. So he would have a golf lesson and he would be throwing tennis balls and bouncing tennis balls with kids.

SPEAKER_02: 17:33

I think that was part of part of that. Yeah, Greg, Greg used to be my boss. I think I told you before. So you get him on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 17:43

I'd come to Singapore and stay with Greg at a tournament, and I go, What do you do with the teaching? And he's like, Come and have a look at this. So I went and watched him teach one day. And he's bouncing a ball against a wall with a kid. And he he turns around to the parents and said, You've got to do this stuff with your kids. He goes, he needs to know how the hands move, where they go, reflexes, catching stuff. It's not about just swinging a golf club, and the parents are just looking at him with a glazed look. And I'm like, he's onto it. Because as you said, too many parents nowadays, it's right, you're gonna be the next best golfer. And at eight, by the time they get to 16, they're burnt out. By the time they get to 18, there's they want to go out with their friends drinking and having a party and they're done playing golf.

SPEAKER_02: 18:28

Yeah, unfortunately, I've seen too many of that happen in Sigarpool.

SPEAKER_03: 18:32

Yeah, it's if they push too hard too soon. Let them play a bunch of sports, let them have fun. And then if they've got the drive to do it, and that's what my I was like, you know, my parents just said, here you go, you've got here's your opportunities. And I thought I play soccer in winter and and and at school and summer I played tennis, and then school holidays I played golf. So I only played golf in school holidays when I was at school.

SPEAKER_02: 18:58

One of the things that uh soccer and say rugby AFL teaches you is it beats you up, man. It's a very brutal sport. I I remember getting kicked around when I was playing soccer, and you you know, you just pick yourself up and carry on. And I think those mental skills kind of bleed into the game of golf. And if you have not played those games, you don't really have that perspective.

SPEAKER_01: 19:25

No, no, no. Well, there's you you're taught resilience.

SPEAKER_03: 19:31

So that's one, and and especially with soccer, you uh and in most of those sports, you can't dwell on what's just happened. You've got to move forward because the game's gone. Especially soccer, tennis, AFL, cricket. You something happens, it's like, well, that's gone. Okay, and the ball moves so quickly, the game moves so quickly, you've got to switch switch modes and go back into that. But the hard thing with golf is you hit one shot. You got you got three, four, five minutes for your next one. And that's when a lot of a lot of thinking comes along, a lot of reflecting and and and a whole bunch of things. So there's there's a lot of different dynamics, which is different to in most sports, because everything's pretty quick with other sports where golf takes takes a while.

SPEAKER_02: 20:21

I like what you're saying, Terry. The problem with golf is that it looks deceptively simple because the ball is not moving. There's no one trying to take the ball off you. And there is no physical pain involved. Running in soccer, your legs are burning, your lungs are burning, you just keep going on. Golf, you can't do that. There is no pain element there. I guess the only pain element is at the end of the hole you write down a triple bogey because of all the stupid stuff that you've done. The mental pa Yeah, what you're really saying here is there is there is a there is a thin gray line between excellence and golf and the other physical sports. And it's this, right? That golf is essentially a loser's game. The guy who loses less strokes wins. Whereas in the other sports, the guy who tries harder will off most often mean you run harder, you run faster, you run longer, you endure more physical abuse, you kind of will get out a hit at the end. But golf that's not quite so Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:36

So it seems, as you said, someone who jumps the highest, jumps the longest, runs the fastest, throws the furthest, wins. Yeah, golf's not like that. You can have the guy that hits it the longest, but he's not gonna win. You have a look at the guy that hits it the straightest, but doesn't necessarily win all the time. So there's so many factors. Now that you you've got as I said, there's so many external elements to it as well. So you've got the slope of the ground, you've got the wind, you've got hazards, you've got all these variables that come into play.

SPEAKER_02: 22:18

Jesse, you look like you wanted to ask Terry something.

SPEAKER_00: 22:22

Oh, well, um these these intangibles, in my opinion, I'm gonna call out not not you two, but a lot of the instructors. You know, Terry, you mentioned about uh different lies, different facets to the game. The game's always changing. And I feel that it it's an it's a it's it's an instructor's duty to teach a player how to deal with these various phenomena that are gonna come up 100% of the time. 100% of the time are you not gonna have a level lie? 100% of the time are you not gonna have a perfect lie? 100% of the time, are you not even gonna have the same golf shot on any golf course that you play, even if it's your home club that you've played thousands of times? And these variances need to be taught, in my opinion, as a part of the curriculum of learning basic fundamentals, because we need basic playing fundamentals. And uh along with you know, certain fighting certain win patterns, maybe holding it off into a right-to-left win if you're a right to left player, vice versa, if you're a left-to-right player. Uh, you know, where's a good weight distribution if the ball's below your feet? What do you do? How about this? What is one's contingency plan when they know that they're hitting it like shit and they got to go out and post a score? Are you still gonna be aggressive or are you gonna play conservatively? These things, I mean, Terry, you uh I mean, us on this call know these things, but unfortunately, even some of the uh really good amateurs that I know, or at least get paired with playing in golf tournaments, they don't adjust adjust to this phenomenon often. And it costs some press of shots. So, you know, that's kind of like my gripe with with modern day instruction. It's it's uh, I mean, I I think golf coaches should have the ability to teach these things, unless uh a player wants to have an entourage of golf coaches, you know, um, which is a phenomenon today. But that's sort of what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_03: 24:47

Yeah, that well, the the the I think the problem we've got now that's compared to golf back in the day, golf clubs are bigger, easier to hit. So that's one thing. Second thing is everyone's getting taught on a driving range. Driving range is dead. There's no come out in the golf course, do some on course stuff. Like I took a bunch of juniors um uh on Friday out in the golf course, and we stood there and we're standing on the first team, and there was uh we had 10 juniors, so we split them up into groups, and we're just standing on the team, they're all teeing off. Wind's pumping off the left, and they all stood just left edge of the T-box and tried tried hit shots. And we're like, right, guys, so pull them by and I said, Did anyone know where the wind was blowing? And they've all just got a blank look in their eyes. They're like, I said, how far was it to the hazard on the left there? And they're just like, and I'm like, so and they go, Oh, we can't feel the breeze. And I'm like, okay, walk five meters off the T box because it was sheltered, and they go, Oh, we can feel it's really strong off the left. And I said, This is the awareness. And and they're like, Oh, the light bulb's going off. And I said, Okay, so it's blowing 20 Ks an hour off your left, can hardly feel it on the T, but as soon as you walk off, I said, So have a look around. You can see the clubhouse, there's a flag on the clubhouse. Where's the flag going? And they said, Oh, left to right. And I said, Okay, so where do you reckon we need to stand on the T because that ball's gonna curve left, right? Doesn't matter how you and they're like, oh, okay. So next thing you know, we're re-educating and to say, you've got to look at your surroundings and assess, assess your life. So that was the stuff. So that was and then they realized, okay, but too there. And then we get up to the green and we've got a chip shot. So we've got the flag and we've put them on the back, back left of the green. So now they've got this downhill left to right chip shot. Now we've got different level of golfers. So we've got we've got a five-handicapper and a 25 handicapper. And so I've got five of them. So I've mixed them up, so I've got a lead to to sort of middle of the pack. And I gave them a T each and I said, right, what club are you hitting? So we're five yards off the green, and the pin is another it's 20 yards away total. So I said, What club are you using? And they go, Everyone grabs their lob wedge. And I said, Okay, not a problem. I don't say what. I said, now put the T down. Where do you reckon you need to land the ball? And they all put the T down and they all put it more than halfway to the hole. And I said, go hit your chip shot. So they all grabbed lob wedge, they were at their chip shot. One lands past the T, rolls 30 feet past. All of them are trying to land at their T. Some landed on the T, some the people that land it short actually rolled down close to the hole. And I asked them and I said, Do you think that was the right option? And they're like, Oh, and that you see them blank because that they're they're not thinking. And I'm like, Yes or no, was did you execute to where you wanted the ball to land to finish? And one guy said, Well, I hit my spot, but it went 30 feet past. And I said, Yeah. And I said, So, and then the others goes, Well, mine went close. I said, I said, Yes, it went close, but what was your intention? He goes, No, I didn't intend it to land it where I did. And I said, Okay, well, so look at it, let's look at our options here. And I said, and and you start to explain the process and said, Okay, you've got a downhill green, the ball's gonna roll a lot. So all you need to do is land the ball two, three meters on the green, and it's gonna run down to the pin. Now, all of a sudden, now you can use your pitching wedge, you've got a swing that just goes to knee height to knee height, or you can put it. And they're just they've got blank looks on their face, and they're like, Oh, we didn't think about that. And I said, Oh, you think a great blob wedge, go again. And they yeah, yeah. And I mean, even this is the the sixth handicapper. And uh I said, right, guys, we're gonna play three balls each. And I said, three different clubs, you work out which one you perform better with. And it was quite interesting. So the 25 handicap, the young kid, uses his putter, putts it down, putts it down to two feet. And I went, excellent job. He goes, Oh, that was easy. Then the five handicapper grabs his pitching match and goes, Oh, I landed two meters on. Oh, yeah, I can see that. I run down. Oh, that makes sense. That was easier. And then you've got different levels of ability, have different levels of shots. And they were like, right, so you open their eyes up to that, and then I move it to a different shot where you actually have to use lob wedge, where we have to go over a bank, and then we go, well, here's your different areas. So, and I gave them options, and then they work out which one works best, right? So it all becomes trial and error, and they'll start to know it's not like you have to play this shot. I'm like, grab three clubs, which one performs the best? So now they're hitting three different shots, three different clubs, and they'll work out what they're comfortable with. Now, when it I said, when you get on the golf course, you've got to then start working out what's low risk, what's high risk. Now, if you're not going too well, a low risk might be a putter from the fringe. I said that's going to get you down. They said for the 25 handicapper, that's your option. And then they go, okay, not a problem. I understand. And then so there was giving them a shot selection, and it's not always what you see. Because the the problem you see on TV, you'll see us two pros. You only see the good most of the time the good shots. Very rarely just see bad play. If you're playing bad, you're not getting TV coverage. So they're only seeing the leaders, the leaders, the leaders. Classic example last week, the Australian Open. Down the stretch, there was a couple of holes to go. You got the leaders, they're hitting some wild shots. It's like uh Rasmus Soyga, whatever his name was, he had nine-on or seven-on into the last hit. This big flare cut right. It wasn't a good shot, but the only reason he got on TV was because he was a leader. Then he goes up, chips to the 15-foot, holes the 15-footer to win to get the masters. Cam Smith misses a six-footer. And it's just like the problem with golf is we only see the good shots most of the time. You don't see the guy struggling. And most pros around the greens are going to be using a lofted club because there's skill level. We can adjust the skill level. But when you're a beginner, you can't put a 60-degree wedge, put it in the back of the stands, trap it, and hit this little low spinner in there. They don't have that. They need to put it or an eight-iron and bump and run it. So the problem is people see this stuff and you see all these people on YouTube and Instagram saying, oh, you've got to chip it like this, but it's just like, hang on a minute. For a guy that shoots 100, this is what you need to do. If you're in the in the 90s, this is what you need to do. If you're in the 80s, it's this. And if you're in the 70s, well, you're going good. So that's where you've got to separate your level ability and your coaching ability to that level of golfer and train them on course. Because it was it was amazing with the juniors, but the different levels, was I had a five-handicapper and a 25-handicapper. And it was like the five-handicapper out of a bunker. I said, Yeah, basic shot, the 25-handicapper. I'm drawing lines in the sand going, okay, you need to hit the sand here. Okay. Right. And he's like, okay, and I get it. And I said, you need two practice swings, and then you hit one out if you've hit the sand in the right spot. Now I get the five-handicapper and I go, right, we're on a downhill lie on hard pan. How do you play this? And it's just a glazed look. He's he's he's like, what do you don't you practice this shot? I said, you're gonna get it on the golf course. And I said, what are you know about? He goes, I just practice off a flat lie. And I'm like, here we go. So next thing you know, we're on downslope on hard pen, and I'm showing, I said, this is how the ball's gonna react. This is how it's gonna go. And he he was just like his mind was just opening up, going, We don't see this. And it was like, right, okay. And then the next tile we go and we're in the trees. I said, mate, you're not gonna hit the fairway every time. We're in the trees on the left. We've got overhanging branches, you've got 150 meters to the flag, overhanging branches, and you've got to hit it, hit a hook around a tree. What do you do? And they're all standing there and they're like, Oh, I'm just gonna hook it in. I said, Okay, well, where are the bunkers? Where's the hazards? Where don't you want to be? And they they they're like, Oh, I'm not thinking, I'm just trying to hook it and get it on the green. And I'm like, Well, chances are you're not gonna get it on the green. So if you don't, where's the easiest shot to get onto the green from? And they're like, right. And then I get the 25 handicapper and I said to him, you just hit it 50 meters short of the green, and then we're gonna pitch it on. The high handicapper, okay, there's bunker right, deep bunker right. You don't want to go there, and there's plenty of room left. So we're gonna go, if you're gonna miss it, we want it to overturn and slightly left. And they're like, right, okay. And it was just opening their eyes to it's not all about trying to slot a seven eye and hit a nice little draw or a nice little fade.

SPEAKER_02: 34:17

I really, I really like that approach, and it goes back to what we were talking about, practicing on the field of play, practicing for the requirements that the game uh needs of you. And most people are so enamored with oh, I want to see my seminar and how it works, what my swing plane is like, the outcomes of the shots. And I I think we can summarize that last five minutes with golf IQ. The IQ of the teacher. You are actually accurately diagnosing the problems of your student and accurately prescribing a solution to that problem. And also increasing the IQ of the student that's before you. I think not enough is set off this concept.

SPEAKER_03: 35:15

Well, there's there's there's cause and effect, right? So it it it's funny, like someone comes to me for a lesson, they go, I'm hooking the ball. Now, the first thing I go on is I'm gonna check their fundamentals. Like I was telling these kids as we're we're walking down the field, I said, What do you want me to look at? And they go, uh I keep hitting it left. And so I stopped there and I said, Okay, let's hit one. So we just drop the ball on the fairway. Bang, he hits one's left, right? And I said, So what do you think? And he goes, Oh, something wrong in my swing. And I said, Yes, but let's let's sit down and analyze this for a second. I says, when you hit a bad shot, the first thing you've got to do is check your fundamentals. Was my grip correct? Was my ball correct position correct? Was my stance correct? Weight distribution, all this stuff. And then they've just looked at me and they're just like, no, there's something in there, and you can see in his mind, he goes, I know, it's something in my swing. And I said, Yes, but if your grip is out, if your ball position's out, if you're already aiming left, they're the things you've got to tick off first, right? So then you go, okay, oh, I'm aiming too far left now. Next shot, you square yourself up, make sure you're aiming correctly. Then if the ball goes left, then you start going, okay, my grip, my stance, everything's correct, the ball's still going left. There's a technical flaw. Too many people go straight into, oh, there's something wrong with my swing. And it's just like I've got classic one. A guy just sent me this morning a swing analysis on uh he sent me on skillist and said, Oh, I've got poor hooks. First thing I'm looking at is his grip, grip and ball position. Now I see it, and he's got a really strong right hand grip. And then I watch as his elbow comes down in the swing and the elbow's out a little bit, not tucked in. And I'm like, well, with a strong grip and he does that, that ball's going left all day long. So, and I was trying to explain that to the kids where you've got to get your fundamentals right. And I said to all of them, I said, what I say to one kid about their golf swing might not might not apply to you. I said, So don't think one kid's gonna have a strong right hand grip, the other kid's gonna have a weak right hand grip, one draws it, one fades it. I said, Don't try and listen in if I'm giving certain instructions to them. And they're like, okay. And I said, I might say the complete opposite to you, and you'll be like, what the hell's going on? And I and I hate to sit down and explain. Not everyone has a strong grip, not everyone has a weak grip, not everyone has a neutral grip. There's all these different patterns. And they were like, right, you could see the light bulb starting to go off. Because I got the 25-handicapped kid, strong right hand grip, hit little draws. The five handicapper hits these little fades. And it was just like, and then I explained it, I sat to him and I said, Look at your two grips, both have got different grips. One draws it, one fades it. And then the the low handicapper goes, Yeah, I really struggle to draw. And I said, Well, that grip is more predominant for a fade golfer. But I says, We want to draw it. I'm gonna show you ways to draw it. And they were like, right, okay. So they started to realize, and I've got all the other kids there to watch, and I and and I said, watch their setup, watch where they're aiming, watch the ball. So all these kids are now locking and checking fundamentals. They're not talking about, oh, I've got a bow the left wrist at the top, and I've got a shallow and come down. They're looking at the fundamentals. And I said, that's the first thing you check. Too many people go to, oh, there's something wrong with my swing. So I remember in in Singapore when we were there for the um inter national yeah, and I'm sitting there and I've got these little pull drawers in my my irons, and I'm I missed the cut by one. And I I remember I hit the 11th hole, I hit a pull draw into the bunker, make bogey. And then it was the first hole, I hit a little pull draw, and it was like, hang on a minute. I'm sitting there going, I'm trying to I see fades, I hit fades, and I got this little pull draw, and I'm like, what's going on? And I sent Mike Adams a message after the event and uh touched base with Mike a little bit and I said, Mike, I I was getting these pull draws, and and he goes, So send through, and he goes, your right hand grip got too strong. So I have a weak grip. So if I grip the club, the V of the left hand, uh V of my right hand points more towards my nose or my left ear, a bit like Rory. And then Mike's going, now look at your grip here. And he goes, the V's pointing more to your right shoulder. So you release the club properly, that's gonna shut the face, you get that little pull draw. And I said, Yeah. About four or five of them, and he and I said, I made three bogeys, and that's it. And I said, Miss Cut, and you missed by one or two, and it was just like, wow, that's just the little things. And even me as a player, and as I was still coaching, you you still neglect a couple of those things, which is I'm sitting there going, oh, there's something in the swing, and Mike's like, mate, it's your grip, just weaken your right hand, and then the following week, weaken the right hand, and off we're going again. But um, too many people, I think, get caught up in the technical side instead of looking.

SPEAKER_02: 40:38

You you want to be good technically, and you certainly are. Like we've had many conversations about swing philosophy and how you teach the game, especially as you pointed out earlier, bogey avoidance when you know how to plot your way around the golf course. Can you talk a little bit about the biggest influences on your golf games growing up and when you were on tour? You certainly meant you mentioned uh Mike Adams earlier. I think most of us uh who have been involved with golf certainly know that name. And Mike's got a very interesting uh philosophy about uh measuring uh anatomy, their proportions to one and another, and how that influences the choice of your crib and subsequently your ground reaction forces.

unknown: 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:28

You talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_03: 41:30

Yeah, so I started off in oh when I was 13 with Jack Mills, just an old he was 70 odd when I started. So it's taught me the basics and just swing back a little bit of K to K back to the old days and then developed. Um when I had uh when as I got better, I got into the state team. So I had uh Ross Metherall, so he was the coach. So Ross had me he had Greg Charmers, Brett Rumford, Steven Leaney, uh Jared Mosley, he had all these Western Australian players, so he'd be coaching them, and then you all develop, you watch them develop, and then um went across to a move to Melbourne, and I worked with Steve Brody, who I had my wins with and my success with, with Steve. Three Asian to a consecutive wins, yeah. Yeah, yeah, Asian to a win. So we had a patch. I was at that stage, I was, and when I was married, my wife was a psychologist. Um that way, uh ex-wife now, but uh wife was psychologist, so we we started working on the mental side of the game. And um, she's just shaking her head, she goes, You can hit all the shots, you can do all this, but you're not succeeding. So next thing you know, we started a plan on how to practice, pressure practice, performing, and then the coach would come in and a little bit of technical stuff, but I would go to practice and I had a goal to achieve at each practice session. And it was sitting down, so with putting I had a certain goal. So I'd be on the putting groom for an hour and I'd just smash out my drills, bang, go from there. So we had structure, and that was that was the the patch from 04 to 06 was unbelievable in playing wise. It's like I think I missed maybe one cut in two years, and there was, I think I had three wins and nine or ten top tens. Um, but we had structure, so every time I went on the golf course, I did the it was boring, it was monotonous, but I did the same thing every time. And then um then I get my card in Europe, and um I think things started to unravel a little bit there because it was like I remember playing playing with Ernie in one tournament. I said, Oh, what do you reckon I need to do with my game to get the next level? And he's like, Oh, you gotta you gotta hit some draws sometimes. So I just hit little fates and he goes, Oh, you know, like this the fourth hole here, the pinned back left. If you could draw one in, you would have instead of hitting six, sine, thirty feet right, you could draw one in and get it to five, ten feet, you've got a chance. And I was like, Okay. And then go and play, I play with Thomas Bjorn at the Dunhill Lynx, and I'm hitting little flat cuts and the wind's blowing the ball away. And and Thomas says, and I hit this drawer, and he goes, Why don't you do that more often? And I'm like, it doesn't suit me. And so I go back to the coach, and the my wife or ex-wife said, Okay, we've got to be able to hit drawers. And I'm like, and he goes, Yep, you've got to be able to draw it, you've got to be able to draw it. You need to draw it under these circumstances. And I'm like, and I go back to the coach, and the coach is like, no, just stick to what you're doing. We'll we'll gradually work on it, but just that in she was in my year, and no, no, no, and change coaches and next thing the next coach tries to to get me to draw it. So I've gone from top, what was I 150 in the world and playing really well to then just slowly drifting out. And next thing you know, I'm I never used to hit it left, unless you know I'm finding myself in the left trees, and I'm like, wow. I said, okay, this is this is not the path we need. And then so I just sort of went to another coach to say, what do you think of this? And tried, I tried to get back to where I was um when I was winning, but I was missing a few pieces of the puzzle. And uh eventually I come across Mike Roll, uh Mike Adams and Terry Rolls.

unknown: 45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 45:45

Right, and they they had a look and they said, I have had this feeling. And I'm like, Oh, that's what I used to do when I was winning. And I said, I used to do this drill and do this, and they're like, and I said, but I couldn't draw it from there. That was my issue. And they said, Oh, you just needed to do this, and I'm like, Oh, and it felt like I'd wasted 15 years because you're always just trying to get back to what you had, but it but there was always a missing piece, and I couldn't connect the dots, and uh and then they came back and said, Right, here it is. And I was like, right, so I was I was off and going again, and uh and then COVID hit, and uh we got locked down in Melbourne, so we couldn't travel, we couldn't play, and uh so I missed I think nearly over uh nearly 18 months of playing, and then uh then a knife fell off the kitchen bent and landed on my foot and severed the tendon on my big toe, and uh so I missed another another 18 months of golf. So I missed three years, and you can't miss three years of golf nowadays. And that was pretty much by that time I'm now 47, 48.

SPEAKER_01: 46:58

It was I'm past it.

SPEAKER_02: 47:03

So that's that's a common refrain that I hear from uh touring professionals that come onto our podcast that in trying to get better, sometimes they get worse. What's your advice to elite amateurs, tour pros looking to get to the next level, as you said, based on your conversations with Ernie and Thomas Bjorn? Well, I just What would your advice be to them?

SPEAKER_03: 47:34

I had Ernie, I had Thomas, they're all saying, Oh, you gotta hit drawers, but I'm gonna play Colin Montgomery. He doesn't need a draw, he hits little fades. So I playing Colin, he's just hitting cuts all day long. And I remember one of the boys asked him, I said, Oh, you know that fade you always hit and I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they go, Oh, they try to get me to draw it. And he goes, I didn't play any good, so I just kept fading it.

SPEAKER_02: 47:54

And I'm like You know, interesting you mentioned uh Colin Montgomery. And you always uh in our conversation, you always use this term flat cuts. Could you just give a flavor of how different that is from the the high fades that a lot of our listeners are used to hitting?

SPEAKER_03: 48:12

Yeah, so well there's different patterns, right? So there's different ways to cut the ball, right? So but for me, a flat cut, because I've got a weak right hand grip, so when I grip the club, the V on my right hand points more towards my left eye or left ear, right? So I'll have a steeper angle of attack, and the club is almost not out to him, but the path is will be going slightly left. So now you're hitting down on it with the face slightly closed with a weak grip. So the ball comes out lower, it launches lower, it's got more spin and it's shooting out low. Because I'm covering it, I don't have with a weak right hand grip, you do not have as much side bend to the right at address. So if you tuck your right elbow at address, you're gonna tilt the body to the right. Now, if the right elbow's out slightly because you've got a weak right hand grip, your spine angle is gonna be a lot straighter. Now, the straighter the spine angle, the more you hit down on it, the more the path goes left. And if you've got the face slightly open, you'll get a little pull cut. Now, if you've got side bend, you tilt to the right, the right elbow's tucked, path goes slightly to the right, the ball launches higher, we'll spin a little bit less.

SPEAKER_02: 49:34

And what you said about Monty is a lesson worth remembering for a lot of people. Just swing according to your DNA. Absolutely. He's not done too badly. Eight order of merit, uh, and with seven seven of them consecutive years. And this was a time where Jose Maria, Olafado, and Sevi were playing. So it's not exactly some uh pushover to a no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03: 50:03

He had Faldo, Sevi, he had he had a bunch that was Norman. Yeah, yeah, you you had good players, but he he stuck to his DNA. Like I look at it and go, I had a I had a formula that was working, and I went away from the formula. Now, if I could go back 20 years, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Absolutely. And and I had a formula that that worked. It was like I had if I was hitting balls, I'd hit balls with my feet together and feel as though my arms passed my body. So my right arm went past my body. There was no flip of the face, and it was just a little flat cut. So I got to the stage in tournaments. I remember I had a tournament, I was in a playoff in Sanya, the second tournament I won, and they mow the fair the fairway strips, and the the mower gets the light green, dark green. And uh I'm sitting I'm counting fairway strips, so we're trying to hit the light green, so we're trying to hit the down grain. And the wind's blowing 20 20 kilometers an hour off the left, and I'm like, fourth mower strip on the right. And Caddy's going, yep. And I'm first player foal, I miss it by a foot, and now I'm hitting it into the grain, which is the course was really grainy, so it affects your ball flight. So hit eight on the grain and two part. And then the next time I'm like, right, fourth mile strip, and I hit it. And I'm like, right, we're in the go zone. I hit eight on, I hit it to a foot, tap it in to win the playoff. And it was just I knew exactly what my ball flight was doing, what the shot was doing, and it was every time I stepped onto the range, first thing I did was feet together drill. So I'd hit five balls of my feet together, and then I'd slowly get my stance wider and I'd feel my right arm past the body. And then if I was working on something in the back swing, I'd have a string. So I'd tie a string around my right index finger, like a shoestring, and then pull the string tight and put my left hand on my sternum. And that just brought the golfing machine drill. Yeah, well, that's extensor action. Now I didn't know anything about the golfing machine back then, but their golfing machine does it under the left armpit. I did it the sternum, and I used to swing back and through, and that's my they're my two drills. And then I'd go right, I could hit a fade doing that, and then if I have to draw it, well, I just aim way right and turn my hands over. And that's all I did. So I'd go on the range, four balls, aim at an alignment, stick eight yards in front of me, I'd hit a hit it left, so I'd aim straight at it, hit a pull fade. And then if I had to hit a draw, it felt like I was aiming 50 yards right and I had to hook it. And that's all I did all day long. And then all of a sudden, if I'm under the pump and I need to do something, flat cut. I just hit a flat fade in there. And patch there, it was was unbelievable. And it was just like I did that every time. And then I'd do my wedge distances every time I got on the on the range, and then we go. I remember Brunei Open, we play a practice round at Brunei. I first never played the course of all Empire Country Club. Empire, yeah. And we're looking and we play a practice round, we go, okay, there is eight shots inside 100 meters. Like if because I'm not a long hitter, so the par fives I couldn't reach, or I'd be just short. And then there was four par fours where you've got inside 100 meters. So we get on the range and we're looking and we're like, we've got to practice our wedges. And the range drops down. There's a big drop-off from the T-box down the range, and it's like you hit into a valley and goes back up. So we and it's a two-tier driving range. So we measured the driving range, and the driving range width was 90 meters, and everyone was hitting from the top tier. So I went down to the bottom tier of the range and was hitting wedges across the range. And everyone's going, What are you doing? And I said, I'm going to practice. So then I just put my wedges, my head head covers out back. That's how we didn't have track mana or anything back then in 2005. So I just put head cover out at 40, 60, 80, and I'll just hit wedges to that. And then the next day I would go 50, 70, 90. And then off we go, and everyone's just going, they're looking at me, just shaking the head, going, You're stupid. And I went, okay. And then it's one by five. So I should, I think 19 under, and the next best was 15 or 14 under. Yeah. So but understanding, it was like, right, what do I need? It's Jack Nicholas's own golf course. So it's wide open. I said, not a problem. I've got no drums out. I drive it straight. So that was my strength. And I said, what's our next best thing? I can't reach second hole's a part. First hole, I can hit driver and a pitching ridge. I said, perfect. Second, oh, I can't reach a part five. Well, I'm going to hit it to 70. What's what's dialed in on the day? And I'll look at it and go, well, there was bunkers in it at like from 60 in, cross bunkers everywhere. So I said, right, I've got to lay up to 70 or 80 or 90. Well, and and so I'll do my wedge practice in the morning and I'm I'm on from 70. So I'll just my layup yardage, I go, I need me 70 to the pin. And then we'll go, okay, right, I've got to hit driver off the T, I'm hitting five iron as my layup. Bang. Then you hit wedge to a foot, go to the next. And stuff like that. So it was just managing certain courses you're gonna, you're gonna play well on. And then others, so like we play the played the HSBC champions in Xhan in Shanghai. And that one, I it was that course was didn't suit me. It was too long. Because the par fives, if you're long enough, you could reach the par fives in two. But if you couldn't reach, you had to lay up, but you're laying back to 130 meters because there's water and everything across. So I was like playing these courses, going, hang on, this this is this is gonna be tough for me because the par fives, the big boys can just knock it on the green. And I'm trying to compete, trying to make Birdie with an a-on in my hand. And uh that's tough, but you get courses like that. So there's certain courses you're gonna play well in, and certain courses you're gonna you're gonna struggle on. But that's that's golf. That's that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02: 56:21

So th this is uh a little bit backwards go going backwards now to your your youth. Um when when you made the decision to turn pro and play the game for a living, how did you know that you were ready?

SPEAKER_03: 56:36

I wasn't I wasn't ready. And you learn real quick what you need to do. So um I had I was winning tournaments as an amateur. So I was winning, like I won the state amateur in WA. I won five of the amateur tournaments, got it, and you once you win the state amateur, you get invited to play the Australian Open. So go and play the Australian Open.

SPEAKER_02: 57:03

Were you contemporaries with Brandley Hughes?

SPEAKER_03: 57:07

No, no, no, Brett was already pro. So my era was um Brett Rumply.

SPEAKER_02: 57:12

P O M. Oh, sorry, okay. So you're not uh Peter Lonard and Peter O'Malley's.

SPEAKER_03: 57:18

They were one generation before, I guess. In front of me. So I was uh Greg uh Greg was just in front of me. So Greg Chalmers, Brett Rumford, Jared Mosley, Richard Green. Richard Green was just already gone. So I remember when I first started getting into golf, um, I cattied for Stuart Appleby when he came to yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:39

So is that how you got the Fehan Dunleavy connection? Yeah, yeah. You need to get that guy on, man. Fein. So many good stories. So back to you.

SPEAKER_03: 57:54

So I wasn't ready to turn pro, but like I was winning amateur tournaments, but I never like I won the state amateur, I made the cut the Australian Open, I played with Tiger in the Australian Open. I finished top 10 in the WAPGA one year as a as an amateur, and but I wasn't getting picked for any of the the um the national teams. So I'm like, well, there's no point doing this. So I thought, well, went to college for a year in Columbus, Georgia. Didn't it wasn't for me, I didn't like it. Came back and I'm like, well, I've got I'm not gonna stay amateur, so I turned pro. Wasn't ready, but you adapt real quick. And I'm like, right, what do I need to do? And I was living in WA and I thought, no, this is everything's all on the West East Coast, right? So I moved to Melbourne, and I'm like, right, okay, I'm gonna source out the best coaches who were they. So they were Steve Bann, Dale Lynch, and those guys. So I started working a bit with them. Yes, they were too busy, and then I was like, okay, I've got to find someone to work with, and then started working with Steve Brody, and then I met uh my uh met my partner there, and then we um got working together. So Steve got me into a system in the program, ex-wife got me going into some structures, some practice, and then it just and I just worked hard. I absolutely worked my butt off. So it was this, it's not oh, I'll just do a few hours of practice. I'm out there and I'm I'm hitting lots of balls, I'm chipping, I'm putting, I'm doing every part of the game. And you just start slowly start to okay, where can I improve? Where can I improve? Where can I improve? Okay, I need to improve my putting. I'm not getting enough up and out, so start working on that. And it was, it was you I had to work hard. I had to work really hard to get there. Now it doesn't come easily, and if you don't practice, you're not gonna get the results. Tiger Woods, how how much harder did he work then? Everyone else a lot. And that's all I did. I worked my my butt off.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:06

And it was just non-stop. It was it was directed practice. You're practicing the right thing, you're not just uh ticking the boxes.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:13

No, you're competitive practice. So the the big one I would I would say now going back of what work is I'd walk onto the putting green and I've got okay, I'm gonna do 10 minutes of technique, then I'm gonna do 10 minutes of this drill, and I'm gonna test it. And what is my score? And actually put pen to paper. So as soon as you put pen to paper, everything changes. Right? It's like when you go and play a few games of golf with your buddies and you play a few holes. Next thing you know, you've got to play a tournament. As soon as you've got a scorecard in your back pocket and you're writing down the score, everything changes. So it's it's about being structured in your practice and trying to simulate what you're doing on the golf course. So I'm doing a 10-minute putting drill. Say it's I've got so one of my drills was I had three balls and I had a three-footer, a six-footer, nine-footer, twelve-footer. And I had a right to left, a straight, and a left to right. So I say, okay, I've got nine putts from three feet. So I've got nine from right to left, nine from straight, uh, three from right to left, three from straight, three from left to right. So my goal is 100%. I've got to hold nine from nine. Do that. Full routine, like on the course. Then I go to six feet, and what's my goal? Seven from nine. And then you go to nine feet. What's my goal? Okay, I want to be five from nine. So I've got to go, and I write it down in my book. And then all of a sudden, you start to see patterns, right? So all of a sudden, oh yeah, my nine footers, I hold seven out of nine. I said, So all of a sudden, when I go play the tournament, that day I've done my putting drills and I've got a nine-footer, I've old, I'm I'm on today. This is good. So now all of a sudden I've got some positive feedback. I've got some where my expectation levels are. I should duplicate that, of course. Soon as you write a goal down and you're trying to achieve it, there's a sense of accomplishment. If you don't achieve it, you know you've got something to work on and you've got to work to achieve that goal. Too many people don't do that, especially at the high high level.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:18

So if you're wanting high level, you need structure. Any last questions for Terry, Jesse?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:30

No, I think we want to have Terry back on at some point to continue this conversation. Because I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:40

I think the last part that Terry was talking about structured pro structured. I guess a structured roadmap. Writing down goals. I think that's not really talked about. When people talk about, oh, I want to get better, people say you've got to sharpen your technique, you've got to get your wedges close. But that's very broad concepts, right? And if you don't put down pens to paper, you're not really keeping things honest. You don't have to have something to keep to keep you on track, to let you know where you are, basically.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:14

No, well, this is this is the thing. So you've got the elite players and their goals, then you'll have a guy for a guy that wants to break 100, right? So you do a program for him to say, okay, I need to break a hundred. So your goal is this. So when you go and practice or you go out in the course, I'd I'd rather people go and play holes and practice rather than standing on a driving range and belt balls. To say, here you go, you've got three balls on the around the green. Now you want to break a hundred, you've got to be able to get the ball on the green and two pup. That's your goal. Right? And then the guy that's wants to break 90, well, we've got to get the ball on the green and occasionally one putt. You want maybe one out of those three balls, you've got to get it up and down. And then the guy that wants to break 80, well, you've got to get two out of three up and down. So you change the goal level as the play goes. And then the elite, well, the elite's a whole different ball game, but that's only the elite are only the one percent. You're talking about 75% are trying to break 100. So there's no point of seven, though, those people are trying to break 100, trying to shallow and rotate and and extend and do all this stuff. It's like, yeah, you're 50 meters from the green. We need to get you onto the green and two-part. You do that every time, you're gonna be, you're gonna be going, okay. So there's different levels of goals that you achieve for different players. So it it's interesting how you can break it down into that system, and then people are going, oh, that makes sense. I did it with the juniors, and it was just like the 25 handicap, you putt from off the green. A little bit of fringe, don't care. You putt on, you two putt, you're gonna do better. And then when he gets to the next level, well, then he's got a bit more skill level, then you can go, right, you can chip. Now you've got options. Problem is everyone's everyone's thinking, you watch it on TV, everyone flushes it, I've got to be overflushed. Just because you've hit it once doesn't mean you can do it all the time. You've got it in you, but you've got to stick to your box and what you're trying to achieve. Now, for a high handicapper, fundamentals are correct. You've got to have the right grip, right stance, you've got to aim correctly, and you've got to have some basic decision making. You get a 25 handicapper coming and say, Oh, I'm trying to shallow and rotate. And I'm like, mate, just hit the ball, try and hit the clock face square with the ball so I'll go straight. And they go, Do you know how to do that? And they'll go, no. And I said, Okay, so you've got to teach them basic motion. But the problem is when it's it's it's where we fail is when you first start the game. Because everyone gets to the driving range and they start doing full swings and try and belt the shit out of it. Right? It's like if you're teaching a kid to ride a bike, do you put them in a 10-speed mount by top of the hill, push them down and go work? Right? You don't, right? You have a balanced bike, you take the pedals off, bike, they can walk around, steer, they've got all that they know. And then they get their balance and then they go a bit quicker and they take their feet off the ground. And then next thing you know, you teach them there's a handbrake, right? So you drive on, you instead of using your feet to brake, squeeze that. And then they got that. And then you go, okay, you understand all that. Now start pedaling. Now you put the pedals on, boom. In less than a week, in a week, he's riding a bike. But what do we do on the golf course? As soon as someone first learns the game, don't even show them how to grip it properly, how to stand properly, and then they swing the club up above their shoulder, miss the ball. Why don't they touch them, swing it to knee height, through to knee height? This is this is what the arms and hands do through impact. Don't worry about the body, and you build your way up. Too many people don't get the right fundamental. Once you got the fundamentals right, then you start to expand. But everyone's everyone's like 10-speed mountain bike, throw them down the hill, work it out. Some some people will pick it quicker than others, most people don't. That's where the game's games going, and it's just like you've got to learn the basics first. Scotty Scheffler's classic example. He's got that molded grip. He's been dominant, he's had that molded grip forever. So I was speaking to his old caddy Sean. I spumped into him a couple of weeks ago and I said, was Scotty using that grip? And he goes, mate, seven years. He's uh I've known him seven years. He uses it every session he gets there, gets his grip right. It's the first thing he checks. How's he been playing? Unbelievable. Grip doesn't change. I did a post with um Rory came to Melbourne for the Australian Open. So I love that one. I've got a driver, weak right hand grip, looking at him at the Australian Open. The V on his right hand normally should point to his left ear, it's pointing to his right ear. He hit some, he didn't, he finished 14th, not good for his standards, with the field wasn't very strong, didn't play that well, and hit some wild shots. And I'm like, they're the little things, the little grip change changed the whole dynamics. So fundamentals, people don't focus enough on the fundamentals. It's the things you control. Why one day it goes off, oh I lost my swing. And I'm like, well, the swing doesn't fall apart in a couple in in half an hour. There's a chain reaction to it. So it's it it's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:44

Yeah, because it's boring, isn't it, Terry? Talking about the grid and the setup. That's not as sexy as a squat and routine.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:55

Yeah, I mean, I hey I heard a I heard an interesting story the other day uh about Jim Furick. Our friend Jim Furick. Jim was hurt, and he his doctor gave him a prescription of he can only hit 30 balls in his rehab. So he I think he told the story, but the story, as I understand it, is every single ball he hit, because he only had a cap of 30 balls, was 100% intentional. He would not hit a ball unless those fundamentals were spot on. Every single ball. Yeah. Particularly his alignment. Like he was really anal about his alignment.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:41

Yeah. I I take my hat off to Jim because he's got some stuff in his swing that's just people would go, oh, you can't play with that. Man, how much money did he make? He just stuck to his guns. He knew where the ball was going, and he did his thing. As long as it was square through impact and the ball went where he wanted, he didn't care.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:00

Yeah, we're big Jim Fuhrer fans. Yeah, I'll I'll take my hat off to him there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:04

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:08

Boys, where can our listeners uh find out more about you, Terry?

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:13

Um, you can I'm on um uh social media, so just Terry Pilkadaris Golf on um Instagram and I've got it YouTube, so I'm doing some YouTube stuff, some content, just the the different grip styles, um, stuff like that. Um also on Skillist, so I do a free swing analysis on the Skillist app. So if anyone wants one of them, jump on board, go into Skillist, type in my name, Terry Pilcadaris, and it'll come up and there'll be a link there for a uh free swing analysis, and I can uh go through and I'll explain what I see and uh what you what I'd recommend you need. But I'm about in the new year, I'm about to release, start releasing some stuff, breaking 100, breaking 90, breaking 80. Um, so that's for some in-person coaching and also online. Uh on I'm gonna do a YouTube, start a YouTube stuff with that for different different level of golfers on managing your score and how to practice. And where do you teach out of?

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:23

I'm at Keesborough Golf Club in Melbourne and Morak driving range. Great. Thanks so much for your time again, Terry. Thank you, Jen. Pleasure. Thank you, Terry. All right, thank you.