A Great Golf Swing Is Whatever Helps You Score. In Conversation with Marc Kawasoe

We talk with Singapore golf coach Marc Kawasoe about how a player’s journey through tougher competition, real-world constraints, and hard lessons shapes a coaching philosophy built on function and scoring. We break down how to practice so changes stick, why short game creativity matters, and how to train for pressure without fooling yourself.
• Marc’s path from junior golf in Singapore to high school and AJGA golf in Los Angeles
• The jump in competition level and what team culture teaches about earning your place
• The cost of chasing pro golf and the practical reasons many players move into coaching
• Learning from great coaches while building a non-method, systematic approach
• Teaching a functional swing that matches the player rather than forcing positions
• Why students must own practice time to convert short-term cues into long-term skill
• Myelination, spaced repetition, and why 10 minutes daily can beat weekend marathons
• Short game first coaching, creativity through constraints, and practicing with “wrong” clubs
• Pressure drills, commitment, and making practice resemble on-course demands
• Smart targets, center-of-green strategy, and training without always chasing flags
• Singapore course access realities and how academies create pathways for juniors

Transcript

Welcome And Mark’s Golf Journey

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome everyone to the Flag Hunters Podcast. I'm Justin Tang of the Hidden Castle Golf Club in Singapore, along with my co-host Jesse Perriman. Today we have a very, very special guest. He is a fellow Singaporean by the name of Mark Kawaso, and he holds the very unique distinction of not only representing Singapore, but also coaching the national team. Welcome to the podcast, Mark. Very honored to have you here.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Thank you so much. Thanks so much, guys. Um just a quick sorry to interrupt. Um so just uh just to be clear, um, I've had some national players under my tutelage, but I was never a national coach. So I just wanted to make that clear. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

But also clarifying that. So uh to to intro for the benefit of our listeners to introduce yourselves to our guest base in the US, maybe can you share about how you came to golf and the and share with us the time you spent in the US?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Sure. Um, well, let's see, where do we start from? Okay, so um I'm uh I'm turning 44 this year, believe it or not. Um I started golf uh a while ago, or I was at the age of five, um on our small island of Singapore. Uh that's where I started. And um back then, I think Justin would could attest to this. It was um it was it was pretty difficult to get any practice um here in Singapore because a lot of the country clubs, a lot of the driving ranges, um there was an age uh you had to be basically you had to be above 12 to step foot into the range, otherwise you just had to watch from the outside. Um and it wasn't until the time I turned around seven to eight, if I remember. I was in um back then in in elementary or we call primary school um here, that's where I started my golf at this uh very interesting range called um Green Fairways, um, formerly known as, or rather recently known as Champions. Uh and that place is closed, but but that's where I started my golf. And um it was because of dad. Uh, you know, I wanted to spend time with my father. He was always busy traveling and he was golfing most most um almost every week. And I just wanted to spend time with him. So um, you know, what a better way than to than to start the game early. And I was very fortunate to to have some good guidance along the way. Um and just to kind of fast forward the story, uh, when I was at the age of 14, I was then um the top-ranked junior golfer back then, uh, you know, years ago. And I wanted to dive deeper into golf. I wanted to play with some of the you know better players. And it wasn't until a year or two after uh when my father was transferred over to Los Angeles for work.

Los Angeles Competition And Team Culture

SPEAKER_00 3:02

And that's how the move happened. So we were all obligated to move uh to the US. Um and I did reside in in Los Angeles, up in um a little peninsula called um Pelos Verdes, and that's where I um did most of my golfing, that's where I actually honed most of my skills, uh, you know, meeting a bunch of really good players, uh, played alongside um like the likes of Kevin Na. Um you know, he was from Diamond Bar at that time, if I'm not mistaken. Uh, you know, Nico Bellini, uh to name a few. So yeah, I did I did the whole work. So I did the whole um AJGA thing, and and uh I just wanted to see how far my golf could take me. And and you know, to my surprise, I I guess I did, I did okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

I guess what took you back to Singapore was national service, huh?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yes, yes. Um, as you all know, it's uh it's a mandatory two and a half year stint in the military, which every male has to serve. Um so yes, that that sort of interrupted my uh my education because right after high school, um I had to come back uh to serve the military for two and a half years before heading back to the US to complete my studies. So that's exactly what I did. And um yes, you know, it did interrupt the golf for a bit, but the passion uh was always there, you know, the fire, the desire to do well was always there, and um I continued to to pursue that as I went back um to the States to complete my college.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Also, you you you didn't consider staying for college, uh after college.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

You know, I I actually did want to, but uh a little bit of a complicated situation. My my dad, my dad actually was you know, he was offered a green card many years ago. Um I don't know why the old man uh rejected that, but uh you know that's that was the decision. And if it weren't you know me staying the states, I I I mean I wanted to stay on, but at that time um I think we were left with no choice because back then my F1 visa was going to expire, so I I had to I had to come back. Um I had to I had to return home basically. And that was the decision. Um were there any regrets to that? Yeah, maybe, but you know, um end of it all, it it kind of worked out. It kind of worked out here uh to my favor, and today now um I run uh a golf academy. Um and you know, just uh do my best to grow the game, basically.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So I I I like to put it this way you USA's loss is Singapore's game. So Jesse, Jesse, Mark runs arguably the biggest academy in Singapore. It's called the golfing lab. What's the hashtag? Uh what's the the IG handle, bro?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Oh, so um it's just the uh golfing lab. You can just search that up. Uh yeah, very easy to find.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Um, uh a lot of useful, very edifying videos for for listeners out there. Go check that page up. Thanks, Justin. So um I I want to ask you this, right? How different was your education in golf in the US compared to what you received before you went to the US back then? And then we're gonna compare and contrast to what we see today.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Um, well, I mean, to simply put, you know, I thought I thought going into the States I was pretty good, but um nowhere close. I mean, the level of competition was was that high, like the bar was raised to to a level um that wasn't easy to to reach. And and I remember, you know, uh I started I started uh my education in the US through my sophomore sophomore year of high school was when I started my education in in Los Angeles. And um I had to try walking on the golf team. Um back then. I played for a school uh it's called Peninsula High in Pellas Predis. We were we were undefeated for for 10 years. So so yeah, we we had a record to keep. And uh, you know, the it was a very strong team. And I remember walking on the team and made it as the 11th, as the 11th ranked player. And um, you know, in order to sort of be inclusive or to fit in, uh, you had to play pretty good golf. Otherwise, you know, none of the boys would would want to really hang out or or or talk to you. So um I kind of had to work my tail off uh to get good enough to be to be recognized. And and you know, after a year of of um getting used to, you know, getting used to the different types of grass, you know, in the States, uh, the weather, definitely, um and just the level of competition. I think with all with all the hard one hard work and practice, I managed to move up the ranks. Um, and in my senior year, I became the captain of the high school team, and uh we did we did pretty well, I must say. So we had a we had a clean record of uh of being undefeated. Um and um individually I made it to state, but that was it.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

So you left undefeated.

National Service, Visas, And Returning Home

SPEAKER_01 8:21

So, how did you learn your craft of coaching when you decided to well, maybe one step back, right? Why did you make the decision to transit from player? Obviously, the talent was there to try to see whether you could make it in the the professional leagues, but I I recall from my conversation you you didn't take that route, but you decided to go down the coaching uh route. Like why and how did you learn your craft?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Okay, so well, you know, I I firstly I wanted to I wanted to have a playing career, I wanted to play golf full-time. Um, I know very quickly after turning pro here in Singapore, uh, I did do that for a little bit. And back then it wasn't the Asian tour in just across the border in Malaysia that there were many mini tours, and I started doing that, but um very quickly realized um how expensive it was. Uh and I mean the truth of the matter is here in Singapore, you know, we back then at least um about 20 years ago, it was it was difficult to get to get any kind of a financial sponsor. So um I had to I I had to work you know different jobs. Um uh I did bartending. Uh I was a waiter as well. I did that to sort of fund my practice and my goal, but realized very quickly that uh you know, without sponsors, um it was tough. And and I I then had to make a decision, you know, what I was gonna do. So uh I met back then my um an ex-colleague of mine. Um he um we basically met you know out in town somewhere, can't remember where it was, but he said, like, hey, look, there's a coaching job available at so-and-so uh this academy. Would you like to have a look? And I actually turned it down for a while, um, continued doing my weight ring, continued my bartending, and then realized that you know what, like, um, this isn't really the kind of life I wanted. Uh, you know, late nights is and back then, you know how it is, Justin, you know, we could you people could smoke everywhere, so not the best for for for you know for any health reasons. Um, so I I gave it a chance. I went for an interview. Uh my ex-boss or yeah, my boss at that time, um, Phil Brew, uh, he was he was a very famous coach. He was the former national coach uh here in Singapore. He um he interviewed me and he actually offered me a job that very weekend. So, you know, I decided to take that chance and and see what what it entails. And um very quickly I I started to develop a passion um in coaching. Uh and that's where I you know I saved enough money, did enough hours to then to then go back home or go back to you know where I used to live, back in LA, uh to learn from some of the better coaches. And and fast forward many years. Um, you know, I've I've seen a bunch of coaches from the likes of uh George Gankers. Um a personal favorite of mine would be Dan Dana Dalquist. Uh I think we all know of him. He um he definitely he definitely kind of um gave me a lot of insight to coaching, and and that sort of um made me sort of change the way I I look at players. Um and uh that is it's helped me develop my business, and you know he's he's imparted a lot of knowledge uh during the time I spent with him. So very grateful for him to guide me uh along the way. So yeah, that's that's basically yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Nice shout out to Dana. I was taking that lessons from Dana before he was famous, and he always gave me the time of the day, and heck, he always picked up the tab for breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Oh, really? He's a great guy. We need we need to get him, we need to get him to Singapore at one uh at some at some point.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I don't know, man. He's too busy for us. Yeah, so so thanks thanks for that that color, right? So, like you know, you talked about who you've studied under.

Pro Golf Costs And Choosing Coaching

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Let's talk a little bit about uh the greatest influences on your coaching, and then I kind of want to segue that into how you develop your own coaching philosophy.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Okay. Um well, you know, it um back again, taking back to when I was when I was new at coaching, when I was the rookie coach, man, I I didn't really have um I didn't have a model, I didn't really know what to do, really. Uh my boss then, Phil Brew, I mean, uh a lot of credit to him. He actually guided me. He you know, we were watching lots of old videotapes um on the VCR. I was watching, I was watching material from you know David uh Led Beta, uh Chuck Cook, uh Peter Sr. Gary Edwin, you know, stuff uh some of these coaches. And I was just trying to understand a little bit, you know, of all these things, but I never really had my model. And um and I I realized very quickly that you know what, like the 50 ways to skin a cat, there are more than 50 ways to swing a golf club. Um, you know, what what do I want out of my players? And and I think uh that's where the philosophy came about. For me, you know, I I believe in in teaching people how to play golf and not just teaching golf to people. Um, you know, with with things like social media, um, even you know, chat GPT and whatnot, you know, people are uh are very uh well informed about about different methodologies, about ways to to fix your swing. You know, I even have I've even heard rather of um people recording their swings and then just getting you know AI to break it down and and give them drills and and whatnot. So um yeah, I mean I mean it's it's very different now. But uh, you know, I I just want to to teach people um more about more about the game. You know, so there's of course there's the etiquette portion as well. Um, you know, there's rules, but of course, trying to to develop each player where where they can understand um how to make their swings functional uh when it matters the most. So that's kind of my philosophy behind it. Um, you know, that there are again, it it depends on it depends on the individual. Sometimes, you know, it it it might not necessarily be a need to have a player shallow, have a shallow path coming down. Uh maybe it's just a pressure trace sort of thing. Uh maybe it's just you know matching up, stuff like that. And and and that's why, you know, I don't I don't consider myself to be a method style coach of any sort. Um I'm I'm more systematic. Uh I like to work with what people have. And of course, certain things that stand out that need to be adjusted, sure. You know, I'm I'm I'm all for that. And I think um, especially,

Teaching Functional Golf Not Positions

SPEAKER_00 15:30

you know, Justin can probably attest to this. You know, here in Singapore, um a lot of a lot of students that come through, they they they want it, they want it quick. You know, they want it we're gonna pay you X amount of dollars, uh, we're gonna take a few lessons, um improve my golf. You know, the uh a lot of a lot of students, I mean some are look, some are in for the long term, but a lot of students are just in and and out. So give me what's best for me, uh, so that I can I can you know win my bets on the weekend, so that I can win the next club championship or improve my my strokes game, uh whatnot. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, I guess sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, right? Especially when you think about short-term working memory and long-term memory. Like, yeah, you know what, coach, when you're in front of me, I can always hit it so well. Yeah, that's because I'm in front of you telling you what to do. But what happens when you don't see me for two weeks, right? Yes. Yeah, I like I like what you said, right? And it really echoes what uh Butch Harmon says. You're teaching people to play golf. Like, I think I think that point is missed by so many coaches. They go, like, okay, G A S P grip, address, stance, posture. But if you look, if you scan the PGA uh career money list, the the top 50, every one of them has got a different grip. Like even those guys who've got the same grip, Fred Couples, David Duvall, top of the back swing position, 100% opposite of each other. Paul Ezinger, same thing. Cupface position, very different. But I like what you said. It's a functional swing. All of them can produce a repeatable ball fly. Yes. And you know, when Jesse and I have had so many conversations about this, when you when you decompose your your philosophy, what you said about functional swing, it actually takes a lot of knowledge to kind of like, it's almost like an algorithm. You go look at a student, you see, you see the swing, but your brain goes click, click, click, click, click, okay, you gotta do this. Like that takes years of experience, and then teaching becomes an art form. Yeah, agree, agree. And and you, you know, you you mentioned all these names like Chuck Cook. Chuck Cook's uh philosophy is balanced golf. Produced three major champions in the form of Cory Pavin, Tom Kyrgyz, Payne Stewart.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Payne Stewart, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

The swings, their golf games is completely different. That that to me is a mark of a great coach. Like, coach, I come to you as I am, I'm 100 pounds overweight, don't touch the belly, don't touch the beer, don't touch the the cupcakes, but I still want to play golf. And it's it's refreshing to hear coaches like, yeah, you know, we can we can do something for you, but maybe it's not optimized, but yeah, we can do something for you.

Why Practice Must Be The Student’s Job

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Right. Like, like, like let's talk to our listeners about the importance of sticking to a plan, of a coming together with your coach, identifying the problem, diagnosing a solution for it, and sticking to the plan. Like it's it sounds really simple, but not many students adhere to that wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yes, I I agree with you 100%. Um you know, I I think I think like what you said, you know, a lot of students come in and and you know you lay out you lay out a plan. Um I think many just what many of them look they're willing to work, but they want to do it in the shortest way possible. And the plan might be, you know, it's it's it's uh it's it's not a sprint, right? It's um you know, it's a journey, right? Uh it's not even a marathon, it it really can stretch out for a bit. Um you know, some I I I feel that um and sometimes it's also from the pressure of of parents. Um I think maybe Jesse, you you you might you might see that as well. You might agree with that as well. Um, you know, pressure from the parents to to produce better results um in a shorter span of time. So so yeah, like it's I I think it look, I I think it's you know, golf is seamless, right? And and as coaches, we we do lay out a plan. Um it might be longer for some, but end of the day, you know, I think as long as as long as that communication and the healthy communication between student and coach is understood and they stick to it, um, yeah, up to 90% of the time we see we see a pretty good success rate. So yes, again, back to you, Justin. I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

You know, just you go ahead. Well, no, I was gonna say I have a question for both of you. Yeah. Okay. So how much responsibility? I want to throw this back on the student, and I don't want to throw myself into this because I know that golfers, by and large, can be very impatient and they expect to make changes rather quickly. And most of us don't know how the nervous system works and how we need to break a certain pattern before we can myelinate a new one, if you will. Uh, how much responsibility is it for the student? And as coaches, what kind of questions would you prefer to have thrown at you versus the impatient, impulsive, yeah, I just want to, you know, beat my buddies on the weekends type thing. That question makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, I think I think the onus is on the player, unless you have me and Mark as your full-time employees, we are with you eight hours a day, coaching you the entire eight hours, then that's that's a different conversation, right? But uh the the process of myelination uh to take something from short term memory. So how how it works is this, right? Jesse, what's your your phone number? I picked, I met you at uh the the golf course. Hey, really love your game. Let's let's get together for another round. What's your number? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay. When I go home, what's Jesse's number? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Tomorrow, like uh sharks, I forgot. So you've not bridged the gap from short-term working memory to long-term working memory. It takes about four to six weeks. And how we attack that problem. There are there are obviously strategies to to bridge the gap, to to uh steepen, to to make the transition much faster. It could be slow motion drills, it could be distraction drills, so you do like okay, do four reps of this, walk away. The process of active forgetting actually helps you learn. So the next day I go, what's Jesse's phone number? If I can retrieve that information, oh, it's one, two, three, four, five, I would have taught my brain. I would have learned something. So it's an active process. And I think a lot of students get sidetrapped with this idea. Wow. Saturday, Sunday, I practice a total of three hours. Uh like, you know, it's it's better to practice like 10 minutes a day rather than three hours over the weekend. Because there's repetition, and how the brain works again, it's by by blocks of seven. So in Singapore, our phone numbers were always in blocks of seven. Remember the first four numbers and then last three numbers. Then it's seven seven minutes, one hour, then one day, then one week. Then that's that's the the timeline that your brain works on. So long story short, it's on the student because there's only so much that the coach can do a week or once every two weeks. Mark?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah, I I I mean, I agree with Justin on that. Um, you know, it's I mean, firstly, like we we understand how tough this game is. Um, you know, I I keep things pretty simple in my um at the lesson tea, you know, I especially with the juniors that I teach, um, we we typically work on, you know, two specific things every it could be two, you know, it could be a drill, um, it could be some sort of information, but it's always two things, uh, each lesson, and I'll repeat and then I will I'll ask the student, okay, so what did we focus on and what is priority? You know, stuff like that. Um, whether it's a pressure trace thing or whether it's you know a fundamental change, we'll we'll always talk on these, or rather, we'll rather we'll we'll always repeat these things. Um and and we just try to keep it simple. Um, you know, I feel that in order to

Short Game Creativity And Pressure Training

SPEAKER_00 24:30

develop a player that um is able to perform at a decent level or more even for the average golfer, uh, I I'm really big on the short game. I think I like to start from you know from the green and move back. Um and I think a lot of the times for short game, I think there's a lot of uh creativity that's involved. I mean, of course, there is the skills, uh, the skill sets that they need to that they need to hone as well. But um, I think a lot of short game comes from from being creative. So uh I think the best way that I see you know golfers from juniors to adults learn is is to put them into situations, you know, maybe hitting a shot out the rough and um you know giving them instead of a lot wedge, giving them a sandwich to end and see how they're gonna flight it and see how they're gonna pick their spots. Um on the putting green, it could be you know, we're not we're not putting to the hole per se. We're just we're trying to get the ball star on the right line, we're trying to understand how to how to read the undulations better, uh, maybe put a pressure situation, okay. This this part that you have, a two-part, you know, wins wins your national championship, wins your wins your um club monthly medal and whatnot. So it's uh I I like doing that, and I do see quite a bit of success uh with that. And you know, the technique is technique, right? Uh we we can we can talk about it for hours, we can work on it for days, but you know, it's it's not it's not always that easy to get there in in a short span of time, unless you really are putting in the work. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I really like what you said in the last two minutes. I'm gonna unpack that, right? Like creativity. I think at the end of the day, right, with so much information about the golf swing, it's easy to debate positions. It's easy to debate grips and all that. But what's not so easy to debate is what goes on between your ears. And I really like what you said about taking the wrong club. And I think uh Savvy Biasteros, when he grew up in Pedrina, he only had a three-iron. So he had to figure out ways to hit a bunker shot with a three-iron. Like, how far would you go, Mark, in in doing this take the wrong club?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Uh you know, if we're talking about short games, um, yeah, I okay, I won't I won't.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Before I let you continue, another of our compatriot, Lam Chi Bing, I used to hear stories of him just going out there with only a six iron, and he comes back with a like decent score.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, I remember Tiger used to do something like that as well, and and and you know, beat some of the um the guys on the golf course with with I think it was, I think it was a six-iron also, uh, back when he was playing out on Long Beach, Cyprus golf course, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Um, you know, for me, uh when I put when I put players in situations like that, of course, like who carries a three-iron these days, right? But um, you know, we'll we'll go down to maybe, you know, maybe like a pitching wedge. Um down to a lob. Usually usually, you know, between the pitching down to a lob is what we is what we work on. And and I just like my place to be creative in that sense, because you know, it's kind of like, for instance, you know, if you have, if you have a a bad ankle, but you want to play golf, you're gonna find a way to you know put your weight on your lead side or put your weight on the on the trail side and figure a way to play golf. And you know, you're you're gonna you're gonna learn a lot about yourself. You're gonna learn a lot of different ways to to hit different types of shots. And and that's what I and that's what I like to do with with my players, is to make them think, because I think a lot of us um are creative in our own way, but we're a little we're a little too cautious, a little too safe. You know, we'll if you're in the rough, it's it is automatically a log wedge, uh, not not a not a gap wedge, so on and so forth. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

You talked about pressure drills also. Can you give and give our listeners an insight into some of the pressure drills you use with your better players to really to uh actually simulate pressure?

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Okay, so like we'll be on the golf course, and let's say there's you know the there's water on the left. Um, and off the tee, I'll I'll tell them to sort of aim towards the water and try to move it back into the fairway. Because I remember a long time ago playing um golf with a um a Thai legend uh by the name of Priate Mark Sang. Um, Justin, you would know. Super well he's he's always he's always told me that you know if you want to play good golf, um you're you're never gonna win tournamenting the ball straight. The fairway gets much wider if you can shape it one way or another. Debate that then. Joking, joking, bro. Joking. But you know, those are sort of the pressure drills that I do with some of my players to give an example, um, to make sure that they're able to hit that little pull cut or to hit that little sling from right to left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

I I I my my favorite pressure drills, I tell myself I need to hold three bunker shots while my wife is waiting in the car going home for dinner. That's pressure. You know that with marriage, yeah. But uh uh, so so taking this pressure thing what one step uh to the next level, right? So there are physiological responses when you're under real pressure, right? So like, oh, welcome, leader flight, makawa so we one under leading by three, like on the first T-box, like instantly, like all the blood goes into your arms. Like, how do you simulate that kind of pressure, like physiological pressure? Like, sure, we can say, hey, you know, we're we're putting for the masters and all that. Like at some level, I think the brain kind of knows like you guys are cheating me. But how do you simulate that kind of pressure where you're actually under some kind of panic attack where are you there, Mark? Yeah, so so we were talking about pressure, like how how how do you simulate like all these physiological responses that you will experience in the heat of the competition? It's it's one thing trying to say, hey, you know, we're playing for the US Masters, two of us, 10 foot part, but you know, at some level your brain kind of knows that you're having me on. But it's quite different when you're like after doing like 50 push-ups, your arms are engorged with blood. Try to hit a driver with trouble down the left and the right. Like, let's do it. Like that these, I mean you you were a competitive 12 player. You know that that experience on the 18th hole of the second round. I need to get it on the fairway, I need to birdie this hole to make a birdie. That that sort of pressure. Give us some give our listeners some insight, especially for our competitive listeners.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Uh, you know, I I I've always been been taught or trained to will things to happen. Um so when I'm in a pressure situation or with a student, you know, I'll I would tell them to evolve, you've got you've got a six-foot part, you know, I want you to will it to go in. Like this part is going in before we even step over the ball. And and we'll kind of practice that uh a bunch of times. And and I kind of realized, you know, with uh through my experience doing this, uh there are there are two types of players, you know, there are some that just stick to the process. So meaning, you know, I'm just gonna make sure I hit the center of the putter face. Stuff like that. Um and and they do okay with and they get some success out of it. But I feel for the vast majority, um it's really just making sure like this this is going in. You know, we've we've had this putt before, it's not it's not the first time we're doing this. Uh, we're gonna wheel this part into the hole. Or I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure that this is I'm gonna stripe this down the middle of the fairway.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah. So basically what you're seeing is repetition, you cauterize the the uh the mindset, like, yeah, you know, this is what we do all the time. So when you're actually in the heat of the moment, look, practice before brain takes it out from the the mental storehouse, like, yeah, we've done this before.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Yep, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

That's right. And and and you know, there's this thing about, and Jesse and I always talk about this, right? Your practice must must uh closely mimic the demands of the golf course. Like, how big are you on that?

Practice That Mimics Real Golf

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Uh you know, look, I I do agree with that. Um one of the things that that I that I practiced um as a junior or even as a as a player at the uh at the collegiate level, uh I got to play a bunch of golf courses without any pins. Um, you know, the hole was cut. We just couldn't see where where where the where the hole was until we were about maybe 50 yards or in. And um I I feel that again, you know, if we talk about playing at a pretty high level, you know, the more greens you hit, probably the better off you are walking off the golf course, you know, playing power, or better. Um, and there is a saying, right? Like the center of the green never moves. You know, sometimes you aim middle of the green and and you pull it, you know, three feet to the pin.

unknown 34:49

Right?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

And you're left. That was him, yes. That's that's that's right. And uh I I completely agree with that. And you know, we get a lot of our juniors, um, even our adult students who who come on the golf course with us in the evening um at our facility, where they'll do that practice. You know, they'll they'll see, they'll kind of see where the where the flag is, but we'll we'll pull it out and then we'll replay the whole again and just try to hit center of the green. Because you know, each time you're on the practice team, right? You're in the driving range, hitting to different points or different targets. Yeah. You're you're always you're always hitting, you know, no more than like 30, 40 feet away from the from the pin. And then you realize it's okay, well, I'm hitting ball after ball. Look, I can kind of do this. You know, I've got I've hit 10 shots and and I've managed to hit three, three shots out of the 10 pretty close to the pin. The remaining seven balls are somewhere around there, maybe one or two are off the green. Um, and and we're talking about practice greens that are probably on a scale, what maybe a third of the size, or maybe you know, a little less or more. Um and and I and I feel that you sometimes playing away from the pins, you're hitting like Tiger likes to hit to his spot. And and if we keep it very simple, if we just try to hit center of the green, if you're hitting the green more often than not, um again, you're you're walking away with a with a pretty good score.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

So you you talk about playing high-level golf. I think a lot of our listeners don't really understand there is the difference, the the difference between high-level golf, like call it competitive golf, and just playing you know, in your your weekly uh foursome with your colleagues or your buddies. There is a difference, right? And Jesse and I always talk about the difference being the granularity of the detail. Can you talk a little bit about the transition you've made from amateur to tour golf? Like, what was the the shift in mindset? So and as well as I guess the technique part, right? Like, yeah, you could, you know, you could hit it towards the toes and the amateur and still win, but on the pro ranks, like, oh, not really, man.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, uh, you know, but during my during my time playing golf, um, competitively, and when I say competitively playing, playing as a professional, um, to be honest, I I you know I've had my fair share of good rounds, but I was pretty mediocre as a turn professional. You know, I've I've had I've had heaps of miscut. Uh but that never sort of um the passion to and and you know the the patience and the persistence to to get better was always there. Um that's something which which I never gave up gave up on. Um and you know, like again, playing at a a professional level, you you know how it is. You know, you you you have to you have to to post at least two good rounds firstly to make the cut. And of course, to get a uh pretty nice paycheck, you'd have to then go deeper and and you know play play on the par, at least for the for the most part. Um and no, it wasn't it wasn't easy. Uh you know, what did I I tried to I tried to chase the positions in my golf scene, I tried to look better. Um had I had I known the well the with the information that I know today, had I known that earlier, or had I met a coach like myself, or maybe someone like you, Justin, um perhaps I'd still be doing this uh as a career. You know, we a lot of the times we we learn a lot from from the failures, um, from the mistakes that we make. And I think for me, and I see this quite a quite a fair bit with uh with our local golfers, um, is that you know we're we're trying to we're trying to chase something, we're trying to we're trying to get our swing looking good, we're trying to get our ball speeds higher. Um and and the truth of the matter is that, you know, are we doing enough to to score better? Look, I I can I can I can safely say that uh most of the guys who are touring, I'm very sure that they are. Um, you know, but but what exactly is it that they need to do more to perform at that high level? That's that's always uh a big question mark. But I think a lot of it comes from comes from from the short game.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Agreed. But what are your thoughts on this? And again, I I'm not sure if Jesse really uh appreciates this, but we've got so little golf courses for the amount of golfers that we have, and access is a real problem. Whereas for Jesse, like, oh no, after work, he can just like, yeah, let's go, let's go get a round of golf as easily as you and I say, hey, let's go kick a soccer ball and some patch of grass. Like how how big how big a difference was it for you when you came back to Singapore?

Singapore Access And Building The Golfing Lab

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Obviously, in in uh California, Los Angeles, you you had access, any access you wanted. Like, do you think it it makes a difference in our Singapore context?

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Yes, uh, definitely. Um, it makes a big difference because you know, back back when I was in the States, you could literally drive you know 20 minutes away from where you're staying and and and play a couple golf courses, a lot, a lot of municipal golf courses in the area. Um so access was definitely easier. Uh back here though, it's it's it really is a different thing. Um, you know, you have for the most part, you have to be a member somewhere to get course access. Um and and Jesse, I'm not too sure if you know right now in in Singapore we we don't have enough public courses for for the rest of the golfers to play. Um I think we have a a short course, Mandai, uh as one of our courses here. Uh uh, Justin, and then I think we it's like the part three course in Pebble Beach, uh Jesse. Something like that. Something of that's of that scale. Um so no, it it's it's very difficult. You know, I I think um having the access to a golf course uh definitely helps to to improve um the it helps to improve you as a as a golf, as an individual. Um you know, without that sort of access, it it is a little more challenging. So thankfully we do have we do have neighboring countries that we that we can drive into or even take a uh you know a ferry, take a boat ride to to get some excess. But without without a lot of that uh here locally, it's it is tough. It is very difficult. And I think I think one of the things that the governing bodies has have done for for junior golf at least, you know, they they've got a lot of joint junior tournaments spread throughout the year. Um and even if you're not a member at a country club, you do get that access to to play and practice on some of those courses. So I think for that we are locally, uh I think we're moving in in the right direction there with our junior development.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

And uh fortunately for Mark's students, he's teaching at the facility that has two 18-hole golf courses. Really easy access. Yeah, we're very quick. There's another another uh sister club uh where Mark teaches. There's another 18-hole, but uh further up north on the island. So we talk about granularity in playing. Let's talk about granularity in you teaching your elite golfers, your time spent with the national players. And I think some of them actually uh are working for you now, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Um, yeah, well, a couple of them are. Yes, uh we have uh Elizabeth Ang, um who was a former a former player for the national squad. Um Hadi that does some part-time work at our end. Um I know he's he's based at the Singapore Island Country Club, but he does a little bit of work at our side. And uh we we have a former number one golfer um by the name of Quincy Quack, that all of us locals know. Um he he does some work at our academy as well. So very very grateful to have these three players on on board with uh our team of coaching staff.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

You know, I always think of your era as the golden era. You, Chi Bing, Talmudan, Patrick, Patrick Tang.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Patrick Tang, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Hey, Jesse, I always read about these guys in the magazines. So I started late. I started like at 20 years old. So looking at these guys, like, wow, if I could be like them, how great it would be, man. But look at look at me now. I'm talking to them on the podcast. So you know, it's uh it's it's strange how things work, man.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

So so can you can you give uh us from a business perspective how you established the golfing lab, like the challenges you faced, and how you groom the next uh generation of coaches and and players equally?

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Um well I started the golfing lab in 2017 with my business partner, um a local by the name of Francis Tan. He's also a golf professional. Um and he he he works for Mitsubishi Chemical. I know he goes on the tour and and and does shaft distribution and does a lot of uh a bunch of fitting. So he's he's he's very good at at fitting as he is um at coaching. So him him and I uh started this some years back. And um the challenges we face, you know, it's it's very different when when you when you're just uh good at what you do coaching, but then at the same time, you're trying to grow your brand, you're trying to get some awareness, you're trying to grow the business. That's uh that's a very different hat that we wear, and it's and something that we that we learn every day, still, still am learning uh every day. Um, the challenges is is really uh to grow to grow the brand uh and to have people recognize that okay, the golfing lab is a good place to start your golf, or it's a good place for your child to push his or her level um you know to to something of a more competitive nature. Uh we make it a point uh for our junior golfers who come through the academy to to get some uh exposure in competing. Uh and we have seen a lot of growth um in that in that department. I can safely say that for our academy, I believe we have uh probably the the biggest junior base. And uh uh we have a lot of these juniors playing pretty well and and doing well.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

So if a parents want to groom the next Tiger Woods, you know who to look for in Singapore. Okay, uh who's on your Mount Rush more of golf coaches?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Um gee, where do I start? Um Dana would be Dana Delkus would definitely be up there. Um I we all grew up watching a lot of what Butch Hammond does, and you know his his philosophy is kind of what I shared. Um so so Butch would be Butch Hammond would be one of what would be the next one. And um uh I don't know this this one might might surprise you, but um I'll I'll I kind of like Harvey Peanut. Yeah, I read I read his uh little red book and little red book. Yes, and all the other colors together. And that's right. Um I don't know. I I I do like his I do like his materials very it's very simple. I think it's it's an easy read. Uh anyone can can pick it up.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Uh let's repeat this together. What's his favorite phrase? Take dead aim.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yes, yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah, and um if it were to be uh another coach, uh gee, I don't know. But there, I mean, there would be a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

I mean I talked about pressure, yeah. You talked about pressure traces, right? There must be a Scott Lynn in there somewhere, uh John Tatter.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Well, so so this whole this whole deal of you know um improving my my pressure trace and and how that can help students, um, that was that came from from Dana. I mean a lot of a lot of stuff that he he was inspired a lot by by you know Mac O Gray, uh to name a few. And and you know, I I I feel that um this this toll pressure trace thing is something that we see uh happening a lot more. Uh it's it's kind of um it's sort of what the long drive or the long hitters do, you know, the guys long drive tour. And um we know we're trying to sort of kind of like blend that with um with what the the guys on tour do. So so that uh I feel that that's uh one of the key elements to making sure you also have an improved uh low point control uh in your golf swing, and it also helps you be a little more explosive, um, which also increases some of your your increases your distance with your clubs. So yes, I'm I'm big on that.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Anything else you want to ask in my Jesse? No, this has been great. Thank you, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Thanks, Jesse. Look, I hope I've been answering your questions. You know, half the time I'm I'm sitting here on my chair, I'm really listening in. And uh again, this is my this is my first podcast. I I just hope I at least um share a little bit of my insights, but but it's always good to be invited. And Justin. Look, Justin, Justin is a guy whom whom a lot of us uh a lot of us local coaches know. I mean, he probably his his knowledge of the golf thing and and his information is it's it's like our national library in Singapore, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

You're too kind, brother. You know, I mean I know a lot of your stuff, man. What what I feel about uh coaches in general is that they're not as holistic as you are. So I appreciate that. The the the question is, why aren't coaches more like Mark? Right? It's it's like you you take this technical path, you you learn everything, and then you go like, hey, actually, it's it's functionality that we are after. But then on the same, at the same time, because you know so much, when you I'm sure when you point stuff out to your to your coaches, they're like, shit, what why did he say that? And then they probably like mile over it for like two days and then go, ah, now I know the thing. So it's it's like you gotta climb up the mountain and then you come back down again almost. So hopefully, uh when we publish this podcast, or listeners hear about you. I I firm I truly believe that other other podcasts will want to invite you on and talk about talk more about your philosophy, man. And and let people know that hey, in Asia, we've got great coaches as well. It's not just in the US, not in Europe, and not just uh uh UK and Australia.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I again I'm very appreciative of being on this podcast. And and and look, uh shout out to a lot of the local coaches here as well. I mean that there are a bunch of uh of good coaches, local and foreign coaches here. Um and you know, I look, we're we're all we're all trying to grow the game in our own way. Uh you know, I'm I'm not one who who wants to to have beef with with with others and say that look, my my way, it's my way or the highway. Uh I'm better than than you are. You know, it's not about that. You know, we have we have a lot of good coaches, and I think we all we all have the same passion, the same desire to grow the game, uh, to improve our players, whether whether you're junior level, whether you're you're you know, you're you're an adult or whether you're an evergreen golfer above the age of 50, you know, we which we try our best to help everyone out, and uh we do it because of the passion, especially for me. Look, I'm very passionate about what I do, and and I believe that with uh with the knowledge that I've gotten through for some of the coaches that I've that I've met along the way, some of the coaches that have taught me, um, you know, I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for them. So uh a lot of credit to these players as well, and and you know, credit to to you, Justin. I know you know your stuff, and you know, we've talked um you know, offline, we've talked uh about different patterns. Um we can we can go back to to the golf machine and and whatnot. I mean you you know you know the golf machine in and out, you know Ben Hogan's Five Fundamentals. You could probably recite the whole the whole book, even. But um, but yeah, I mean it's it's it's you know with with coaches like yourself that um I think we all we all share this the the same the same drive, which is to to really uh get everyone enjoying the game of golf, you know, and and and really getting them to understand how to play the game um and not and not just teach it to them.

Closing Thoughts On Growing The Game

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Yeah, it it's it's so well said. I think sometimes we we we get lost in this, like, oh knowledge, information type stuff. Then we forget like ultimately are we serving the client? Thanks for bringing us back down to that. Like the the most important person is the student in front of us that taking time out of their day, paying us hard earned money to improve. Well said, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Thank you, thank you, gentlemen.