How To Train Your Nervous System For Better Golf ! In Conversation with Dr. Callan Lichtenauer

We sit down with Dr. Callan Lichtenhauer to connect the nervous system, subconscious patterns, and performance psychology to what actually happens when pressure hits on the golf course. We share practical ways to rewire negative self-talk, make mistakes feel safe, and swing with less tension and more freedom. 
• Callan’s path from chiropractic to sport performance psychology and why the nervous system matters in golf 
• How subconscious beliefs from childhood show up as tension, chaos, and fear during competition 
• Rewiring neural pathways by practicing “safe to make mistakes” in everyday moments 
• Simple on-course resets like intention setting, breath with steps, glove reset, and 3-3-3 sensory grounding 
• Sitting with hard feelings off the course through journaling, meditation, and talking it through 
• Why negative self-talk steals bandwidth and makes your body play defensive 
• Using awareness and inventory to catch spirals before they take over 
• Learning from pros and caddies about acceptance, detachment, and staying task-focused 
• Reframing stress as excitement and using visualization to make pressure feel familiar 
• Separating identity from outcome and building a life outside golf to support performance 
You can find Dr. Lichtenauer on Instagram @mentalmovement.co and her website, www.mentalmovement.co

Transcript

Solo Intro And Guest Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to a very special edition of the Flaghunters Golf Podcast. I'm flying solo today without Justin, but we have uh we have someone on the pod that I I do believe that is going to help bridge the gap between performance, hard work, acceptance, and going out there and just uh being the best that we can be on the golf course, on and off the golf course, quite frankly. Her name is Dr. Callan Lichtenhauer. Callan, thank you for saying yes. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Callan. Doc, let's see here. Where do we begin? Um, first things first, how did

From Chiropractic To Performance Psychology

SPEAKER_00 0:45

you get into the performance psychology and helping athletes get out of their own way?

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah. Um, so it's kind of been a journey. Um, I've always been into the mind-body connection ever since like high school, probably. And from there, I did exercise science and psychology in undergrad. And the one profession that seemed to bridge the two was chiropractic. So I went on, got my doctor of chiropractic, opened my own office right after graduation. And within five years, I kind of hit my limit. I I wasn't doing it for the right reasons. And that was a lot of introspection and took a lot of growth. And my husband and I, we sold it. And I just kind of had this epiphany. Like, I want to go into sports psychology. I love sports. I love helping athletes. I have a lot of experience in helping myself, getting out of my own way. So I now went back for my master's in sport performance psychology. And ever since I've been bridging that gap between nervous system, which I learned a lot about in chiropractic, and psychology and the body and performance.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That's quite a journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah. I I love it, actually. I absolutely love it. And speaking of the nervous system, my goodness. Uh, you know, now we're starting to, I think that at least in mainstream psychology, uh, we're really starting to study the effects of the nervous system and the subconscious, and that they are truly running the show. Uh and in golf, uh, this is a uh a subject that we really need to examine and uh investigate because uh you and I have spoken uh before about how the nervous system and the subconscious run runs the show, uh whether we're aware of it

How The Subconscious Runs Performance

SPEAKER_00 2:35

or not. And uh so tell us tell us a little bit about that to start, about how the nervous system is running the show, whether we're aware of it, whether we're aware of it or not.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, so your nervous system is obviously it's within your body, but it's the main link between your brain and your body. There's messages being sent from your brain down and from your body up. And our nervous system can hold patterns, it can hold tension, it can hold memories over time. And the conscious brain is just such a small part of our brain. The subconscious makes up 90 to 95% of our minds. And it's kind of like the deep ocean. Like, there's so little that we know about it still. Like, for example, the right brain, left brain, like research on that recently, it's it's that's kind of like outdated at this point because every part of our brain is interacting together. So there's so much that we don't know about it still, and there's so much to learn. But for the most part, you can unknowingly bring in old thought patterns or old physical patterns. Like, for example, if you grew up in a house where a parent's emotions or energy kind of ran the show and you were walking on eggshells, that is a state that is lived in your body, your nervous system holds that. And now you might always tend to be in a state of tension or chaos and always looking for that because that's what's familiar. So all of these things are happening that we don't know about, especially because we picked some up in childhood. We've learned them through parents or school or friends or coaches, and we're just kind of conditioned to be like, oh, this is familiar, and we bring them into adulthood, into performance spaces. And that's what I really love about it. It's like, how can we take this psychology of our past and of the nervous system and learn states and not just like leave it at that? But I love how is how are we bringing it onto the golf course, or any business owners bring it into like their life and their

Making Mistakes Feel Safe Again

SPEAKER_01 4:40

business or any sport. And that's what I really love to dig deep into.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and that reminds me of something that I've been working on with myself and something I've been telling myself in affirmation is that it's it's okay and it's safe to make mistakes.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Now, I can tell myself that consciously until I'm blue in the face. But in the past, my body went, uh-uh. I don't care what you tell me. I'm gonna respond in this way when I'm under dress. So ideal, you know, and like for example, in a golf tournament, making a mistake. We're all gonna make mistakes out there. We're all gonna hit sideways shots, we're gonna three putt, we're gonna miss putts, yada yada yada. Um, and for me in the past, that would trigger that old subconscious belief that it's not safe to make mistakes. Because in my house, it was not safe to make mistakes. So it seemed when the when the chips were on the line, so to speak, and and I was at the edge of fight or flight. And even if there was a shot that I had that had the potential of making a massive mistake, my body would freak out. And I'd have to sort of temporarily breathe my way out of it unknowingly. So is that more of a bridge there uh between the nervous system subconsciously, that old thing it's not safe to make mistakes, things like that?

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Right. Yeah. So when you're telling yourself it's it's not, or when you're telling yourself it's safe to make mistakes, like that's incredible. And but your body has to realize that it is safe to make mistakes. It might still be replaying those memories from childhood. Like, same thing, it was not safe for me to make mistakes either. So you the way to bridge that is one, keep doing it, but show yourself that it's okay to make mistakes. Even translating if you spill your coffee in the morning, being like, hey, no one's gonna yell at me. This is fine, showing yourself and the part of your nervous system, or if you do like IFS therapy, like kind of parts work in that sense, that inner child of you, it's safe to make mistakes because it's like you just laugh and you clean it up. And that over time can also translate on the golf course too. Sure. And if like there's an obstacle in the way, like water, and you could really mess up this shot, just be like, okay, my intention is just to get it away from the water. And whatever happens, happens. I'll figure that out. But set that intention. I had a hit over water, and I'm like, okay, great, fine. I'm gonna hit over water. That is my intention for the shot. I hit it over and it land into a bunker. I'm like, okay, I'll figure the bunker out, but I hit it over the water, that's totally fine. I can handle this next shot.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah. And and I think that asking, if you do that over and over again, will that slowly replace some of those subconscious?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yes, because what you're doing is rewiring a neural pathway. So that's kind of the muscle fibers of your brain. So the more that you train your muscles, the stronger they get. The more that you train this neural pathway, go down this neural highway, so they call it, the stronger it gets in your brain. So the more you do it, that's why I said take into anything like spilling the coffee in the kitchen, missing an exit, who cares? And that'll eventually translate onto the golf course. But also, if those feelings are so uncomfortable on the course, if there's a lot of anxiety there about missing the shot, well, then I would invite anyone who feels that to like sit with those feelings. And that's what a lot of people avoid doing because that can get really hard and heavy to do. But a lot of the ways to combat that is to be like, okay, what is so scary about this? And that's when you realize, oh, it's because a coach would yell at me and was a little toxic growing up, or somebody else in that. And it's like, okay, well, that person's not here anymore. And allowing yourself to feel that, see the worst case scenario isn't exactly terrible or isn't true. It's irrational. And then that gives you the freedom to then start moving forward and inviting those shots.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Interesting. So as I take it, it's like reparenting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Yeah, you're basically reparenting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

You know, that's interesting. Um, you know, for I'm gonna I'm gonna ask for those who are listening and ask for myself too. Is it how can you do that in real time? Say somebody listens to this this conversation and they're they go out and they play in a meaningful event or a meaningful round, and they have a scenario like that where a shot is up where it's there's a lot of mistakes that are possible, and their body starts to get into uh

In The Moment Reset Tools

SPEAKER_00 9:25

the sympathetic firefly.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Um is there a way to in the moment prior to hitting the shot to do that, to reparent yourself, to come back to the breath, maybe, or be where your feet are, or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that work is done off of the course. A lot of that deeper work is done off the course. But in an emergency, that's when the tools in sports psychology can be really, really helpful. Now, if that's all you're relying on when you do have these subconscious beliefs about yourself that are holding your back, that's just gonna be a band-aid in the moment. But in the moment when you're doing this work, a good thing is what I mentioned earlier. Just set your intention. Set that intention and whatever happens, happens. And just know that you'll figure it out. You're gonna worry about this shot, this shot only. Um, in between shots, say you hit a wonky drive and it just like sliced right. Well, okay, you'll figure that shot out. But in the walk between your T shot and your next shot, you can sink your breath with your steps because what happens is we get really tense. And that is so key in golf to you've got to be loose. If you tense, you're gonna grip the club a little bit harder. Your movement's not gonna be as free, it's gonna be more rigid, just because that's what happens when you're in a fear-based sympathetic state. So a good tool is breath work because that brings your heart rate down, and then that helps trick your brain into being like, okay, everything is safe. And also telling yourself I can figure it out, especially if you've been in this situation before, then you've already known, okay, I've done it before. So that makes it easier to do. Um, a way to ground yourself, something one of my favorite things is linking like a sensory, so sorry, you can edit that out, but it's linking a sensory response as well to what you're telling yourself. Um you can undo your glove and redo it. That sound of the velcro can help. Um there's looking at three things. So if you're kind of spiraling, a good thing to do is list three things that you see, three things that you hear, and three things that you feel. And that can also be done in the walk between shots too. The good thing about golf is there's a ton of downtime. Yeah. So you do have the moments to be able to catch yourself if you're spiraling, if you're operating from fear or tension to bring yourself and anchor yourself down.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

So it is possible to retrain our nervous system. A hundred percent disregard. Yeah, yeah. I I hate that adage, it's it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah, that that drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Um when you said going back to, and and I'm just I'm I'm along, I'm in the scenario of being on the golf course because uh uh we're gonna get into doing the

Off Course Work That Changes Beliefs

SPEAKER_00 12:20

work off the golf course, but for sure. But um in a scenario where those uncomfortable feelings are coming up, and you said to sit with them, what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

So that would be more so done off the course. Um, you can do that multiple ways. There's, and when I like mention these tools, it's not every tool isn't going to be for everyone. Some people are gonna resonate with other tools more so than others. And I just offer everyone to have an open mind and try things more than once, but at the same time, don't force yourself to do something that you don't want to do if you're doing it frequently and you're just like this doesn't vibe. Sure. There's journaling, even if you just set a timer for 20 minutes every single day and you can brain dump, or there's prompts if that's hard for you. Um, there's also meditating. Um, and that's just like sitting and just bringing your thoughts back to your breath, or even meditating and figuring out, like, okay, for me, um, one of my biggest issues was I just started golfing about three years ago. And I just really started taking it seriously um within the last like year and a half. And I didn't grow up with money. I didn't grow up with country clubs. I now am a member of a country club. So I have this golf exposed so much for me and like what my limiting beliefs still are. So my biggest one was like, I don't belong here. And I would be then afraid because like people are coming up behind me and like I would be sprinting from like the green to the cart and just sprinting between my shots, and I'm exhausted by whole four. And I'm just mentally just so down on myself. So, because I'm afraid I'm gonna get like kicked out or something. Who knows? It's not rational. But then it's like those thoughts were coming up on the course, and I'm like, okay, like I have to sit with those, and like what do those actually mean? So, like you can have a thought in your mind, like, have a like, why did that happen? And you can still meditate on that and just lean into those feelings of inadequacy or not worthy, or there's so many beliefs that people can have, whatever it is, and just be like, oh, okay, like that again, that's not true anymore, and that's irrational. I'm making it up, or that's from this scenario, and you know, talking it through with somebody too can help as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Interesting. It seems uh just a thought, it seems just this game will will really expose the shadow, psychologically speaking. You know, it'll really expose wow. Um, wow, great answers, Doc. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Um and you know, speaking a nervous system and and speaking about what

Self Talk Changes Your Physiology

SPEAKER_00 15:00

we're talking about, speaking of speaking, yes, how important is that internal voice, how we talk to ourselves? What are the physiological effects on and off the golf course of how we speak to ourselves? So important. That was a big one for me.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, I mean, you already have that affirmation, which is great. Yeah, um, that is huge. And everything is related to like I feel like I was going through some notes, I'm like, wow, all these answers are very similar because they all come back to like the same thing. But if you're so for me, on the golf course, I'm like, okay, I'm not worthy to be here, or I also have perfectionistic like tendencies. So immediately I have to pick up a club and be Nelly Corda. So I've had to really control myself with that and love the process of learning something new. And I've come so far with that. When I first started, I could barely make it through nine holes because one, I was sprinting. And two, because I was talking down to myself so much, all of my mental energy and all of my energy was going towards me talking bad about myself and having negative self-talk. Once I've worked on that, I could make it through 18 holes and I've had more patience with myself. So negative self-talk and really, if you're talking bad about yourself, and there has been studies on this, like it affects your physiology because there's more fear there, there's more frustration, there's more tension. So your body's gonna hold that tension. And again, golf is such a game where if you're tense with your swing, it's gonna be funky.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

And your body's gonna try to compensate, which is making it even more funky. And it's a marathon. Like the golf is so incredible, but also so frustrating because if you're on the 12th hole and you're just like kind of out of sorts, you still have six more holes to go, and you can't go to the range in the middle of a round and just figure it out and kind of decompress. You've got to keep going. So the best thing to do is, and with your um affirmation, like it's okay to make mistakes or it's safe to make mistakes, the alternative of that is it's not safe to make mistakes. So if you're telling yourself it's not safe to make mistakes, well, your brain has to then be like, okay, wait, what is it not safe to do? Okay, make mistakes. So now you're focused on making mistakes. So having something like, I've got this, um, just something really brief like that, self-talk, where it's like, I'm resilient, I can figure this out. Your brain's now being like, Oh, okay, I can figure this out, and how do I figure this out? And then it's helping you. So when you're in this tense and fear-based state, your body's gonna respond. And also the part of your brain that is for working memory and critical thought and figuring things out goes offline. So if you do things that help promote positive self-talk, that help promote neutrality, the less that that fear-based part of your brain is gonna take over. And the more free that you are to swing, the more free that you are to have fun, really. So that's why, that's why it's just it's so much better to even if you're not feeling great about yourself, like your brain does still have to believe, like it has to be within controlled. It has to be controlled, like it can't be something that doesn't make any sense. Like, I can't go out there and be like, I'm gonna shoot 80 today because I'm nowhere close to that.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So, so it has to be within limits, but it's still, I can still talk well about myself and have fun in the process, if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Yeah, absolutely. Uh I mean, I just have uh realized this. It's like I have an affirmation to say, Jesse, speak life in yourself. And um, speak life in yourself, and what does that look like? What does that feel like in my body? Uh you know, I had a scenario the other day on the golf course where I hit a perfect drive and I was in the divot. You know, just it was just out of 126 yards uphill out of a divot to a tight pin. And uh I took a little extra club and I hit this shot absolutely the best I could have hit it. I hit it to the back edge of the green, expecting it to come back because there's a little bit of a backboard there and it didn't. So I'm up over the putt, and I had to step away and I had to say, Jeff, speak life in yourself no matter what, because uh that victim that the victim tape that was running inside my head was you hit a perfect drive, you got screwed, you're in a divot. You had a perfect recovery shot out of the divot, you got screwed because the ball's not where it should have been. Oh that's golf, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Um so I really had to talk to myself in that scenario to speak life into myself. And uh it made the experience a lot more palpable, a lot more uh less fighter-flighty, a lot less panicky, a lot less victimizing. I mean, uh, you know, uh for me being vulnerable here, uh, that's been a pattern, like nothing like a subconscious belief for me was uh nothing I ever do is good enough. And then here it is manifesting not only on the golf course, but in the way I'm responding to, you know, a challenging situation. Instead of going, uh oh well, I hit two really good shots and and taking joy in that into uh you know a perfect drive and a and a perfect second shot out of a compromised line. And that's just a basic scenario where in the past I would have I would have really B-rated myself. You know, that internal voice is is is just it's a relenting. And I know a lot of golfers can identify with that.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Um how can we it's like how can we interrupt that? How can we really just how can we interrupt that? Like what you said before about if I'm focused on whatever, whatever negativity

Breaking The Negative Loop Fast

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I'm focused on, that's gonna take up all of your mental bandwidth and it's gonna be virtually impossible to be in the here and now. You know, how can we catch ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

So that takes that takes a lot of, I mean, not a lot of work, but the the biggest the biggest hump to get over is awareness. Being aware of it, being aware of your habits, being aware of what you do in certain scenarios. My first step would be take inventory. Take inventory of how you talked yourself on the golf course when you make mistakes, and just use start using everything as data. Get a feel of how you are on the course and get a feel of how you are in life. Like I was saying, like how you talk to yourself at home translates. Onto the golf course too. If you talk to yourself nicer at home, you're going to be more likely to do it in your sport. So awareness is the first step because it honestly takes a lot of vulnerability to with there's still a lot of stigma around everything that we're talking about. So it takes vulnerability to look at yourself and be like, okay, like what is happening in my life and how am I talking to myself? How am I getting in my own way? Because that's taking personal responsibility and accountability for you. And a lot of people like to place blame on others because it's easier. A lot of people like to hide because it's easier, but really it starts and ends with you. So awareness is key. And then in the moment, if you are spiraling those tools that I was talking about earlier with the sensory techniques, um, if you have a hair tie around your wrist, you can start flicking it against your wrist because then that's like, okay, that stops the loop. The glove that stops the loop. Um, doing the three things that you hear, see, and feel that can stop the loop and bring you back to the present and being like, okay, it's not so bad. And then try to replace that with, you know what, I'll figure it out. And not so much, yes, the outcome is super important, but in the moment, if you're spiraling, it's like, okay, just trust yourself, which also takes a lot of repetition to do. And um, just really like, yeah, like just being like, okay, like what happens, happens. And this is for after the round. Because, like I said, it's a marathon and you've got to keep going. So sometimes you just need a lifeline to keep you out there. And you might not be able to totally flip the switch if you're frustrated and it's windy, because there's so many things in golf that like you don't that that you can't control. It's a game of control, but at the same time, there's so much you can't control. So it's letting go of that and just getting done and then being like, okay, let's go to the range afterwards. Let's figure out some mind stuff up mind stuff stuff, mindset stuff out afterwards. And we'll be back tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Yeah, uh, what a great answer. Uh it's just it just kind of blows me away. It just, you know, the self-talk, the talk, and I mean, even in scriptures, speak life into yourself and how important it is. You know, life and death are in the tongue. And I I think that what the thing that really trips me out, doc, is how incredibly well our bodies obey to what we are telling ourselves, whether we are aware of it or not. You know, the voice is always talking, you know, via our subconscious programming and things like that. I mean, I just I heard someone the other day who's a good player who hit a couple of bad shots in a row and he outwardly said, you know, here we go again. You know, here we go again. And then the rest of his round was kind of uh, you know, spiraling downhill.

unknown 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

You know why that happens?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 25:06

You know why that happens?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Bring it.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Because our brain is our brain's like smart, it's super smart, but at the same time, it's really dumb. And now it's looking for experiences in his past that add to that, that prove that, yep, here we go again. So if I bet if he hit had one good shot for the rest of the round, he'd be like, oh yeah, but you know, and just like totally negated that shot instead of focusing on that, because his brain is still looking for past experience where it's like, yeah, I've fucked this up before, so here I go. And if you stop that, that's when it's like you can change things, but it does take some time and belief. So yeah, your brain, if you keep telling yourself stuff like that, your brain will look for any evidence that that is true.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

So that's where you can help stop that spiral.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Wow, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

That's a big one. I mean, this this subject matter, what we're talking about here, is just so massively important. And I believe, you know, when we had our conversation before that the greats of our game, uh, I'm sure they're not speaking them to themselves in a in a negative way. I don't think Nellie is just beating the living shit out of herself on the golf course. Or Scotty Scheffler.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

There's a, you know, there's a time to hold yourself accountable out there, but I liken it to uh, you know, a mindful, loving parent holding their child accountable.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Um in a way that's not going to destroy their identity or their sense of self.

unknown 26:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

And then and then introduce one of those, you know, deleterious subconscious programming, I'm not good enough, or you know, I'm I'm not good enough to finish or whatever BS stuff that's a lie. That's not true. Especially now as we're adults and we're still running that old tape, which is a lie.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

You know,

What We Learn From Elite Golfers

SPEAKER_00 27:05

um, for me, that was a big realization.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

A big realization that the things that I'm telling myself no longer hold any weight right now.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

This present time. And uh, you know, doing the work off the golf course to divorce myself from that energetic charge.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Right. And that's why it's also important to have, like for the pros, like important to have a caddy who supports you as well, too. Because thinking of Rory at the Masters two years ago, who knows what was going through his head when we were headed into a playoff. So Harry saying that to him, that like, oh, what was it like, you know, on Thursday, we would have killed to be in this position. I feel like that kind of grounded him in a way that brought him back down and was like, okay, like, you know, who knows what was happening? Because it's like the Grand Slam, it's almost there, the media pressure, all this, you know, and now we're we've got to play more holes. And I feel like, and I've I've heard like two maybe caddies using that since that came out, but that grounded him, brought him back to reality, and it made it okay, all I have to do is this playoff, and I can do this. And I feel like that just took pressure off him, helped his self-talk immensely.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah. Yeah, it was a different Rory out there this year at Augusta.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

You know, he he won. And and quite frankly, and uh, I mean, this is this is so impressive to me because Rory did not have his best swing on board that week. You know, his action wasn't the way it was the year before, and yet he still won. And I noticed his posture throughout the tire in the entire week that he was more accepting and he seemed to be very comfortable. Even struggling with his golf swing a little bit, especially as driver, he's it it didn't it didn't penetrate the way that he was talking to himself or the way that his perspective is now. Yeah, I think that he has had a shift. Yeah, and Scotty has it too.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Uh there's there's this air of intensity and attachment. Right. And that just trips me out. Talk about that, Doc. Talk about how how can we get to that space? How can we get to that space of we're we're pushing all in? We're we really want to get better at this game. We really want to be a high-level competitor, you know, even if you want to win your club championship. Um, and then when we get into competition and fight or flight starts to peak a little bit, I mean, I'm sure you know, we're asking the same questions and it's all coming down to the same answers. But, you know, like what can the average golfer, I'm gonna ask one for the average golfer, learn about the difference between Rory, say, you know, a few years ago to Rory now, you know, with that scenario. He's he's on the back nine at Augusta on Sunday. And, you know, the the year before, he he I mean, he in ex inex. I mean, he just I don't even know how he did it, but you know, he hit a relatively simple pitch into the water on 13 and and bounced back. I mean, he really that back nine looked like he was battling with some demons more than he was battling with the golf course. And he saw himself through.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

What can we learn from that?

SPEAKER_01 30:29

So a lot of it, yes, is mental game. It's also experience as well, too, and allowing yourself to make mistakes and knowing it's okay. So if you're in your first ever club competition, you've never had these stakes before, like maybe a different sport growing up, or just stakes are different. So knowing that, okay, this is all experience, and this experience is gonna be data for later. I'm going to use this, I'm gonna learn, like just using everything as a learning experience, like you said, like earlier, like it's a classroom.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Looking at it that way detaches from the identity piece. And a lot of times our worth is based on our identity. So the pros they do this week after week. They play 18 holes for four days straight, and they battle wind and like looking at them at a ronamink. Like I was there all week, and it was it was a battle, even for me.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

And then going to Shinnikok, and but then like playing like the weather, except the last day was fine at the travelers. So there's so many experiences that they have that they know that they can do before or that they have done before so they can do it again. But mental game is key and putting yourself, staying uncomfortable, getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, like you've been saying, is key as well, too. And

Turning Fear Into Excitement

SPEAKER_01 32:00

practicing these scenarios. So if you're going to play a club competition, try to put as much pressure on yourself, like that simulate competition when you're practicing. So do it with a group of people who you might not know or who you might know, whatever's scarier for you. Put with those people, play with more people, simulate crowd or simulate whatever the experience might be. And then that helps make the actual experience easier. Um, I do love there's growth mindset from Carol Dweck from psychology. And there's also researcher Aliyah Crumb's stress as enhancing mindset. So if you break it down, Jesse, if I asked you when you're scared of something, like what's happening in your body?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Like I feel like I want to run.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Right. You want to run and what's happening? Like your fight or flight. So you're you're tense, you're sweaty, your voice is probably shaky, your thoughts are racing, your heart's racing.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

But if I asked you what happens when you're excited, uh, I want to perpetuate that.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

I want to really, yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

You want to run towards it, probably.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

You're sweating a little bit because you're hype, your heart's racing because you're hype. So it's on the physiological level, those are the same things. Being scared and being excited are the same things. Wow. So you can trick your body being like, wait, is this fear? Is this excitement? And if even you're a little nervous, I was a little nervous to talk about everything today, but I'm so freaking excited about it too. So I'm like, I'm excited, like this is exciting. Whereas before I'd be like, oh, that's scary. I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna hide. So just being like, wow, this is excitement. If you wake up that morning of the competition, you're like shaking, it's like, I'm shaking with excitement. You can sometimes trick your brain.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

So the physiological response is the same. And just using just like reps at the gym or reps with a certain drill or skill, using the amount of times that you're playing with people or in any competition as just proof that you can do it. You know you can do it. So next time you do it, you're like, okay, I've I've been there, done this. And that also makes it easier. And that's why visualization works, imagery, because your subconscious, your brain doesn't really know the difference between imagination and reality. So you can also visualize certain Rory could have visualized being in a playoff, and he could visualize the exact scenario and just his brain would be like feel less tense about it, less stressed about it, because it'd be like, Oh, I've already, I've already done this, I've already won, have done this. Yeah. But you also have to back experience up with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, that's well said. I I think that what we're talking about is the very phenomenon where you know, like I mentioned before, where you'll see some guys uh on the Corn Ferry tour, you know, just kind of like the triple A of golf. And girls on the LAT or the challenge tour over there in Europe, and uh the Epson tour here, where you look at their golf swings and you're going, just how how do they not, how are they not at the highest level? And this is the this is the gap, exactly what we're talking about. The self-talk, the physiological effects on on how we speak to ourselves. Are we speaking life to ourselves or are we speaking death to ourselves? And um, I I didn't realize, at least for me, and I know that a lot of people can identify with this, is how much bandwidth that took. You know, I suck. Nothing I ever do is good enough. Here we go again. You know, you miss a three-footer for par or whatever. Oh, here we go again, and then that psychotic loop starts going if you're walking to the next tee or if you're getting in your golf cart instead of just saying, you know, it happens. You know, I I missed a putt. Sometimes you you miss putts for no reason. Yeah, you can hit perfect putts and they can kick offline, but you know, for me, I would take everything personally.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yeah, it's not personal, and separating that is so key.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Wow, yeah, that was oh my goodness, you know, and that's still a little bit of a trigger. Um it's just like, oh, well, I'm Mr. Pott. So I'm not gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah. You know, and obviously it's like it's still fine to be frustrated about certain things, but give yourself an amount of time to be frustrated about it, whether it's a minute, 30 seconds, two minutes, whatever. Allow yourself to feel that frustration and anger. But then by the time you get to your next shot, next hole, whatever the situation is, okay, it's done with. It's done with. And what are you gonna do about it now? Well, you're gonna figure out this next shot. So it's all it's not about being like, oh, happy and butterflies, you know, all the time. No, we're human. Right. We

Detaching Worth From The Score

SPEAKER_01 37:00

get angry about things, we have emotion. So, but just not let it take over everything. And that's why during play, you can use these tools to help bring you back down and ground you, but also outside of the game, outside of like in the middle of a match, competition, whatever the sport is, you can focus on other things that make you you. What are your likes? What are your dislikes? What are your hobbies? How are your relationships pouring into friends, significant others, kids, whatever the situation is, find what makes you you and really spend time with that outside of golf.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Like, look at Alyssa Liu, switching sports for a sec, who just won um gold at the Olympics. And she was just like, I quit figure skating. I kind of just came back on my own. I'm not part of any diet, I don't do anything that regular like peel. I don't train as much as I used to. And she was just out there having a ball, not caring about anything. And I don't think she was the favorite at all and won gold. Like, that's incredible. That's the energy I want to have.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, absolutely. Just being loose, being comfortable in your own skin, you know, playing free, you know, just not having so much attachment and to the results and attaching your identity to it. You know, I'm okay whether I win or lose, whether I play poorly, or if I play well, I'm still fine. I'm still me. No one's gonna die. You know, everything's gonna be okay. Uh I mean, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

The deeper thought of that is like, okay, well, my worth is conditional. There's more subconscious beliefs that you have to dig deep down. It's not just like, oh, okay, well, you know, I I stress out every time I miss a putt. Okay, well, why? Let's dig into that. Why? What did you pick up over the years that your worth is conditional and you only got love or something because you had a bogey free round or whatever, or your coach didn't yell at you one time. Whatever the situation is, your brain and your nervous system attached some belief to the outcome. And you're like, okay, well, to be good, I have to do this, this, or this. And then that's where it stems from, and that's what I like to dig deep about and work on.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I would say that's pretty profound and very and and and incredibly simple. Yes. Um, and again, it it bears repeating two things. Uh, just to kind of finish up the thought of of uh feeling those feelings, Tiger, and I mentioned this before, but Tiger had a 10-foot circle, his dad taught him this. That um once he was within 10 feet of the golf ball, there was nothing else that mattered to that shot. That shot was just as important as breathing air. He would hit that shot, whether it was a good shot or not, he had a 10-foot circle. So if he hit a poor shot, Tiger liked to MF himself sometimes and he would throw some F bombs, get a little bit upset with himself, but once he got out that 10-foot circle, that it was gone. Perfect. It was absolutely gone. So we're not talking about being a robot, right? You know, or being some sort of a Jedi yoga master out there, you know, where nothing is gonna phase you. Um it'd be nice if that was the case.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

But also at the same time, what like a big, a big uh key word right now is like regulating

Therapy Stigma And Nervous System Regulation

SPEAKER_01 40:45

the nervous system. Well, that doesn't mean being stress-free if like the world is called like if my roof caved in right now. I'm not gonna be like, oh, that's okay. Right. Like, no, right. It's about going between sympathetic and parasympathetic the states of the nervous system. It's about going between them and being able to do that freely instead of a lot of people can get stuck in a sympathetic state and that's just where they operate, or even like fight, flight, fawn, or freeze, like you're in one of those states, or a parasympathetic can just be just so chill that like nothing phases you, like that's not okay too. Because if there is something coming after you, you have to do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

So being able to flow between those states appropriately, that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

So uh our current our current and recent US Open champion Wyndham Clark has you know famously uh you know worked with a sports psychologist by the name of Julie Elon. Yeah, and uh he talks about how much that helped him. Uh, you know, and his mother passed when he was young, and it really deeply affected him. And he had to come to terms with that and to release that energy, and it really helped him uh as a byproduct on the golf course to be more accepting of himself, you know, and uh and to go out and and play as free as he possibly could. And it was completely exemplified in the final round because he didn't have his best stuff on a US open golf course, especially that one is pretty punitive, you know, at Shinnocock. Um, but he again he he hung in there. Yeah. He was able to to to push through.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And uh, you know, going in, and I know that there's a stigma between you know, going to see a therapist or anything like that, especially for a man.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Um uh I can tell you it's one of the best things that I've ever done in my life. I agree uh to get in there and really look behind the veil of the ego. Right. Scared protective mechanisms that I had to develop so that I can survive and feel safe growing up.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

And uh, and how they manifested on the golf course was that harsh taskmaster voice, like uh my identity and my self-worth was based on performance versus just who I am, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Yeah, big realizations, yeah, and it's huge, and it's so easy to hide behind something else, or like what you were saying earlier, like just um, I think before we you hit record, like you know, you can hide away and drink a lot of beers or smoke a lot of pot or hide, but you're really hiding from the feelings that you don't want to feel, or hide behind the grind, hide behind work, perfectionism. Like that is you're still suppressing things that yes, it's hard. I mean, I've been in therapy for like five years, and there's still times where I'm like, holy crap, that was a really hard session. I'm still digging things up.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

And it's really hard to sit in those feelings and do that work. But oh my gosh, once you do, even if you just talk about something and And you just get it out instead of just holding it in for decades. Like the other side of that is just so free.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

And you're able to release things that you might have feel guilt or shame, or like, yeah, just like you, you let that guilt and shame are like two big things. And the what that goes back to the way you talk yours talk to yourself too, like saying, Oh, I should have done this. Well, should is is full of shame. Like should is could with shame in front of it. Like I heard that on a podcast years ago, and it changed my life. Right. So it's like you're holding the way you're you talk to yourself is holding guilt and shame when that's not gonna help you swing freely. That's not gonna help you have fun out there. It's it's it's just so it's a learning process, and I love learning and it's a growth, and there's so much to learn about yourself, and like that's that's so fun to me.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Hard, but fun.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

It's really hard. I mean, the ego makes it hard, right? And my goodness, my goodness, it it's it's a thing to be vulnerable and to you know be you know naked on stage type thing, because that's what it feels like. And uh, and uh when at least for me, uh and I hope people can really identify with this that when I accepted myself as being imperfect, yeah, you know, like hey, I'm just I'm a human being, I'm gonna go out and do my best, and whatever happens, happens, and really my body believing

Playing Loose With Simple Cues

SPEAKER_00 45:30

that. Yeah, uh a big paradigm shift, yeah, big shift, you know, enjoy and I just I I'm getting to fall in love with the game again at its core of hitting a golf ball and you know, uh and just and being just playful, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

You know, yeah, being outside, like what a joy that is. I mean, if the weather's great, yeah, right, right. But yeah, but like finding new challenges and being like, wow, I love this. Like that just releases so much right there. Instead of you could pressure yourself, you could shame yourself, but just being like, wow, this is this is so fun. And I know that with golf, like it's very mechanical. Yes, you do have a lot of swing thoughts, you do have a lot to think about, but giving yourself a cue once you step up for your shots, like, yeah, okay, give yourself space to think about the shot, analyze, it's very analytical. You can get into numbers, you can get into weeds. But once you're like, give yourself a cue, like a verbal cue, mine is nope. And I got that from uh Brooks Kepka. I think there was an interview where he was being asked, like, oh, are you having swing thoughts right now? And he goes, Nope. And I'm like, wow, that's gonna work for me. That might not work for other people, sure, but that works for me because I'm still learning. I'm still like, oh my God, the ball is below my feet. What do I do here? It's like, you know what, who cares? And I said, I have my best shots when I do that. So it's it's just such a freeing thing. And it allows you to just have fun and be out there. Yeah, like with um with Victor just winning the Travelers this past week. Um, he was asked, like, Oh, you said you're you're gonna be you're speaking kinder to yourself now. And obviously he's been through a lot of swing changes the past three years, and it's been a grind, but he but I think him speaking kinder to himself has helped immensely as well.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

And he was out there and he was confident and he looked completely different than what we've seen. And of course, he spent four hours on the range Saturday and then Sunday as well at Shinnekock before heading into the week. But I think that has helped

Where To Find Callan And Final Sendoff

SPEAKER_01 47:40

so much to have fun again with the game.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah. Dr. Callan, how can people how can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 47:49

How can they find me? Oof. Well, um I'm on Instagram a little bit, but that's a big way. Um you can find me on Instagram, you can find me through my website and through my email. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I have the mental movement. Um, yeah, you can link in in your show notes because my name is kind of hard to smell spell.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

So and you can find her posting some great stuff on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yes, I am on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Yeah, so you can you can find her. She she gets into the weeds with her posts, which I love. Really great and bold too. I love it. So, uh, doc, I can't thank you enough for coming on. And I I hope that you will say yes again in the future.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Would love to have you come on again and and go deeper into the weeds with the subject. I think that um you and I both uh have a have a real divine responsibility to get this information out and to um and to help help inspire folks that uh you know um embracing the the psychological shadow is gonna do a do a lot of good. More people do this work, the better the world is gonna be. That's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, absolutely. And if there's one thing I can leave people with, it's really just how to swing free. You just honestly fuck all the noise. Get out of your own head. People project their own insecurities and fears into you. Just fuck it and go out there and have fun.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Well said. Thanks, Doc.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Thank you so much, Jesse. This was so fun.