Mike Bender On Efficient Swings And Better Practice

We sit down with Hall of Fame coach Mike Bender to talk about building an efficient golf swing that holds up under pressure, not just a swing that looks good in slow motion. We dig into how great players practice, how motor learning actually works, and why commitment to one clear plan beats chasing the newest tip. 
• Mike’s origin story and how early obsession shaped his path 
• Why organized instruction and clear models matter more than random tips 
• The difference between building a foundation and stacking band-aids 
• Imperatives vs essentials and what Bender prioritizes in transition 
• How “arms feel” can produce better sequencing than you expect 
• Zach Johnson’s development, tendencies, and the value of maintenance mode 
• A scoring-first blueprint for shorter hitters: drive it well, wedge it tight, putt great 
• Wedge play principles: lower launch, higher spin, better distance control 
• Motor programs, myelin, exaggeration, and why feedback speeds change 
• Why you should not try to rebuild your swing during a round 
• How to choose a coach, what to ask, and why buy-in is everything 
• Technology as an analysis tool, not the teacher, and why numbers can block progress 
• The speed myth Bender would banish and what he teaches.

You can find Mike at, www.mikebender.com. Also, you can find Mike under his name on all social media platforms. 

Transcript

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Welcome And Mike Bender’s Background

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Once again, this is Jesse Perriman from the Flaghunters Golf Podcast, along with my co-host Justin Tang. Today, all of you TGM people, the golfing machine, we've got a good one for you. We have Mr. Mike Bender coming in from a suburb just outside of, I presume, a very steamy Orlando, Florida these days. Mike, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Thank you very much. Yeah, nice to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Justin, as always, pal. Look forward to this one.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Hey, thanks, Jesse. Thanks, Mike. So Mike was a three-time NCAA All-American, NCAA Division III individual champion, and he spent three seasons on the PGA tour. This is a very special treat because this is not only a Hall of Fame teacher that can teach the game at the highest levels, but one that has brought his game to the very highest levels.

A Life Change That Led To Golf

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Mike, can you share with our listeners your entry into the game of golf?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Wow. So yeah, I mean, um an unfortunate event became a life-changing event, which was I I grew up in Iowa, and my family or my my parents got divorced when I was 12 years old. And so my mom moved to California. So I went with her. And the arrangement is that I would stay with my mom during the school year, and then I would come back in the summers to visit my dad. And the first summer back, um, I was 12 years old, and my dad asked if I wanted to go fishing or play golf. And I said, Man, I want to go fishing. I don't know anything about golf. And, you know, I and so we went in the garage, we couldn't find any fishing equipment. So there was a set of golf clubs there. So my dad said, Well, let's just go play golf. So we went to this little, at the time, it was a little nine-hole uh part three course. And we he tees off, and and I'm gonna get ready to tee off. And the pro comes out of the uh shop and says, Hey, you guys can't play out of one bag. Yeah, if there's two players, you have to have both of you have to have a golf bag. So I ended up watching my dad play that nine holes, and I was so intrigued. I went home that night. I went to my cousin's house because they had an extra set of clubs, and I got those clubs, and every day after that, I was at my dad would drop me off of the golf course at like eight o'clock in the morning and pick me up at five o'clock at night, and I'd just go round and round. So that's that's kind of how I got involved in the game, and I it was just so challenging. You know, I I fell in love with it, and then uh the rest is history kind of.

Learning From Elite Teachers

SPEAKER_03 2:37

So, what what prompted you to seek out great teachers like Ben Doyle, David Ledbetter, Matt O'Grady, and Mike Adams?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Well, like everyone that starts in golf, if you're competitive, you want to your goal and your dream is to play on the PGA tour at some time. And so back when I started playing golf, there really wasn't any specialized teachers at that point. So, like whoever the head professional was at a country club, they they were the ones that gave lessons, they ran tournaments, they did everything. It wasn't really until I got out of college and moved down to Florida on the mini tours that David Ledbetter was just becoming well known. But having said that, in college, Bobby Clampett was like going to be the next Jack Nicholas. I mean, he was unbelievable how good he hit the golf ball, and he had an amazing golf swing. And so um, Ben Doyle, I went to school about two hours from where Ben Doyle taught over in Carmel. And so um, you know, I was able to go over there on occasion to try to get some instruction because I wanted to become like Bobby Clampett. So that was that was my first introduction to some real organized golf instruction by somebody who was just teaching only. And then when I came to Florida on the mini tours, David Ledbetter was near where I was. So uh, and and he was working with Nick Price and um some of these players, Faldo and so forth. And so we would go over and and he would have a uh three-hour class with five pros. And I would go over there once a week and work with him. And then during the summers, I would play on the uh the Dakotas tour and Mike Adams. That's where we ran into Mike Adams. He was up there trying to play at that time, so I had some uh help from him as well. And then the fourth guy you mentioned, which is Mac O'Grady, that that that turned out once I got on the PGA tour, I ran into Mac O'Grady, and I have some great stories about that.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

We have had a few morat practitioners on this podcast. I'm sure love love to hear your your stories and your encounters with Matt. You should tell our listeners about Mac's voracious appetite, especially when you go to iHop.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, I remember we we'd go to dinner and he'd and and a lot of times, so every night he ordered a fillet and he ordered a loaf of bread. I mean, and the lady said, You want some bread? He says, No, bring the whole loaf. And so every night he'd eat a he'd eat a filet and and a entire loaf of bread. So I know what you mean in that regard.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Yeah, you know, they say the brain runs on a lot of carbohydrates. Going by what he's uh shared with the golf wall, there's a lot of uh thinking going on there.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Uh well, I like Ludbetter said one time, he said nobody knows more about the golf swing than Mac O'Grady, but that doesn't necessarily make him a great teacher. So that I thought that was some pretty good insight. Um so, but I was very fortunate to be around Mac for 11 years, and um, and I still to this day would he uh would credit him with you know 95% of the stuff that I uh that I try to implement to my students. And so I'm very grateful for his insight. And I and it makes sense to me because I'm kind of um I like facts, I don't like uh interpretation. And uh when you're talking about physics and science, you know, nobody argues in the golf world about what gravity is, you know, but they argue about everything else. So I like I like basing my information on something that's you know not rooted in interpretation.

Building An Efficient Swing System

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Yeah, and uh I've read your book, Building the Swing of a Lifetime, a few times. Uh you you have obviously created your own philosophy, your own system of teaching the game of golf. Can you share with our listeners in a nutshell what your philosophy entails?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Well, I I think you want it it's it's our job as instructors to make golf swings more efficient. And so when you make things more efficient, you have less moving parts and less reliant on timing. And so it's it's to simplify the golf swing and not add band-aid onto band-aid onto band-aid in my book, right? So, and I think there's two kinds of instruction out there. I think there's people who I would call it more of a tip or an idea, and you're gonna try to take that and go play golf. Or there's a more of a developmental side to teaching where somebody wants to work on a solid foundation, just like building your house, right? And then you're gonna build the first story and you're gonna add on, but it's built on something solid. So, you know, I I when I started my instruction, um, I I wanted to take that route because I wanted people that were in it for the long run. Not that it takes forever to learn or that, but but if you have a really solid foundation that you're building on, you can keep getting better and your potential is unlimited. And so that's kind of one of the things I've always done. And and to be more specific, I mean, I think swinging around a fixed axis, which is your spine, and not having sway or up and down movement side to side, I think having the hands move around your body on plane and keeping the shaft on plane would be the simplest form. Just like, I mean, I think iron biome is the greatest thing that ever hit a golf ball. And so iron biom was built by engineers, it wasn't built by golf pros. And so if you take the principles that make iron biome work, which hits a golf ball the same way every single time, and you try to implement it and and see how the uh human body can implement the physics and the principles that iron make iron biom work, you're gonna have a pretty good golf swing.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

So earlier you mentioned that nine you would credit uh Mac O'Grady with 95% of the inf information that you have, or in uh 95% of your philosophy. Could you share a little bit of uh some of the teachings, some of the learnings that you've gleaned from Mac over the years that you think would still have a place in today's modern era of instruction?

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Yeah, well, I think um, you know, again, Mac would when I sat around and you know, listened to what Mac said, and and and I and by the way, I feel like, and I tell people this all the time, I learned more from Mac O'Grady watching him teach other people than I ever learned from him teaching me. And so um back in the day, Mac O'Grady had a, if you want to call it a swing model or a preference of how you were to swing the club. And that's why he has a left, that's why he can shoot under par left-handed and right-handed, because he used his left-handed swing as the guinea pig. So when he started working on his golf swing, if it worked left-handed, he put it in his right-handed swing. And so um the idea is though that uh, you know, when he started talking about the golf swing and different aspects of it, it just made common sense. It just and it, like I said, it lined up to the physics of the golf swing. And then not only um could he do it both right and left-handed, but everybody that he worked with, from Tom Seekman to Keith Clearwater to Sebi Balastare, I mean, the list is huge. And they all their careers went up. Um and so everybody that worked on that information, they improved dramatically. And there and they had very Jody Mudd was another one. I mean, they had very, very efficient, consistent looking swings that were, you know, produced great results. So um hanging out in the the first time I was with Mac, I was in a hotel room and I was with Tom Siegman, and I got to sit in the corner for four hours and listen to Mac um, you know, teach Tom. And it was like the it was like one of those things like we all have occasionally in our lives where the light bulbs go off and you have that aha moment. And so, you know, that's kind of what started it all. And then I said from there on, I gotta hang around this guy and learn everything I can. Because I want to be good. I want to stay on the PGA tour. I don't, you know, uh, you know, and unfortunately, I if I would have had his information before I got on tour, I probably would have had a long career out there.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Well, your the loss of your playing career is a win for golfers in Florida.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, and I tell people that. I said my playing career was preparation for my real career, which is teaching the game. And I've been very fortunate to be able to teach players like Zach Johnson and and you know, many others, and and watch their them do what you know I wish I could have done.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

You know, it's interesting you mentioned those guys that took lessons from Matt, all their careers went up. And then when I look at the list of your players, we could say the same of uh you. And what's more t what's what's quite interesting to me is when I I I grew up in the era when when Zach Johnson was up and coming. And then when I look at his swing against a Jonathan Burr, against a Lee Jensen, against a skip candle, what sticks out to me is that there is no similarity. They are swinging according to their personality, to their body type. There is no Mic Bender pattern on them.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

In fact, I would say the Mic Bender pattern is almost a patternless pattern.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Well, thank you for saying that, but I think if I was able to bring them up and side by side and point out the things that we think are imperatives, I think you would see the similarities, which is really cool if you think about it. Um, because if you if Zach Johnson and Mac O'Grady were on the driving range next to each other, you they would not look the same, right? And you would say, well, those two have two different swings. But then if you slow them down and you look, where's the left arm at the top of the backswing? It's right on the same angle as the shoulders, which is 90 degrees to the spine. Where's the shaft halfway down? Uh is it lined up right through the middle of the right forearm? You know, I mean, you so you'd start to see, and there's many, many other things, but you'd start to all of a sudden see these things line up. And um, and that's the beauty about it because we're all different. And I'm the first to agree 100% there's lots of ways to swing a golf club, as evidence of the PGA tour. I mean, look at Ryan Fox's move. I mean, I don't think there's a teacher out there that's going to go start teaching the way Ryan Fox swings. But Ryan Fox swing repeats and he gets into amazing impact position and he really controls the clip face well. So it really works well for him. But if we're teaching the masses and people who are 15 handicaps or whatever, you know, you have to, you can't teach that method, right? You or that idea is you're gonna have to, you know, teach something that's gonna make it easier for that person to get into those good impact positions.

Imperatives, Sequencing, And Transition

SPEAKER_03 14:17

So can you explain to our listeners what are imperatives and what are essentials?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Well, that again, that would depend on the instructor, but for me, like I think, you know, just for example, um, I'll just take the transition, which is the start of the downswing, which seems to be some of the most controversial areas in the golf swing. And so for me, I I believe that the that even though if I if I was out at TPI with Greg Rose and Dave Phillips and everything, and I got on their monitor uh one time and I said, I'm gonna test this out a little bit. Let me make some different swings. So I took a golf swing where I swung the club back, and then I just swung down with all arms. I didn't, I and I, and I tried to resist my rotation of my body. Then the next one, the next swing, I swung down as hard as I could, and I went into impact and I stopped right at impact. So I had no follow-through. And then the third one, as I made my normal swing, and both those guys were laughing, and they said, Your kinetic sequencing is perfect. And I said, Well, which one? He said, All three of them. And I said, Well, the one that I'm swinging with all arms, what's that look like? He said, Well, it looks like you're just swinging with all arms. But the reality was that my body was actually working in the way it should, uh, the proper order. And so one of the imperatives that I think is that people in the transition, most people have so much tension in their arms and shoulders that the shoulders begin the start of the downswing, and that shifts the plane and makes the hands move out, um, which causes most people to then early extend or they have early releases and all kinds of problems. So I think the the acceleration of the hands toward the golf ball should be like an imperative. And in order to do that, you have to be relaxed, you have to have freedom in the arms. Um, you know, so that would be one area that would be, you know, something that I think is really important.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

I'd like to interrupt you, Mike. That is a drill, that is a drill that you wrote about in your book. You mentioned that when Mickey writes swing when off sequence, that was the exact drill that she did.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

And yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

When I did that drill myself, I was shocked to find that I picked up one club in uh carry. Yeah. It didn't make sense because it went against every grain of uh instruction that I've had.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Well, and I and it's you know, as we all know, there's feel what you feel in your swing, and then there's really what's happening, right? So, so when I talked to Greg and Dave, and I'm all wired up again, and I said, Well, you know, it feels to me like I'm just swinging with my arms. They said, Yeah, but you're not doing that. You can see your hips moved and then your shoulders, and you know, so so but the feeling produced the proper result as opposed to taking the what's supposed to happen literally, okay, because because it literally it makes sense, but but how do you get there? That's the thing. And one of the things that drives me crazy about about um social media these days and and all the instruction stuff that's out there is it's really good, but nobody focuses on how to do it. There's no there's very, very few people talking about how to do it, number one. And number two, they don't explain why do I want to do it this way. So I they just tell you this is what you need to do, and here's what great players do, and look at this tour player, he's doing it. And and I think the tour players are great, but they're the model for how to score in golf and how to play the game. They're not the model for how to swing in my book.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

And they're probably uh not not such a good uh source of information if you ask them, hey, how do you do a certain move? Right. They're not really good at telling you what how they actually did it.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Right. And that's probably why they're so good at playing the game, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Yeah, no, no thoughts, uh cluttering their head.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Right.

Zach Johnson’s Swing And Mindset

SPEAKER_03 18:38

So let's uh talk about your your student, Zach Johnson. You know, a lot of people love saying it's uh it's Zach's talented. How much of Zach Johnson was talent, and how much of it of it was 20 years of obsessive work?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Well, I I would say that Zach Johnson is really, really tough mentally. And he believed in himself from the day he's turned pro. He knew he could do it. Um, and so he had he had a high belief in himself. And the great thing about Zach, and the and the thing that I learned about him when I thought the first year I worked with Zach, and he's from Iowa as well, but it just happened that he came to my driving range in Orlando, and um he saw me teaching good players, and then he took a lesson. And I'm from Iowa as well, but we didn't know each other. Um but uh but when he came to me, we worked on his golf swing. He had a very upright swing, believe it or not. It was more upright, had that strong grip. And I said, Zach, a strong grip, closed club face is not really work well with a more of an upright golf swing. I said, if we if we put your swing more on plane, I think you'll drive the ball better and you'll hit it better. So one of the first things we did is have him work on a plane board and get his swing more rotary and and more round. And that was it. I mean, that was one of the biggest things that that he took away. And then he played, he was playing on the Hooters tour, which was a mini tour, and he and he won the last three tournaments in a row of the year, shooting 20 some under par in each event. So he shot 60 some under par in three weeks. And that's when I knew this guy something special, because not many people can shoot 12 rounds in the 60s back to back to back. And uh so first and foremost, he's you know, he's really, really mentally tough. And we worked on his golf swing quite a bit in the early days, and then we've been for the last several years, we've been what I call maintenance mode, which is just maintaining. And I think what's important for your viewers to know too is that all of us, regardless of what our talent level or handicaps are, we all have tendencies. And you have to know what your tendencies are, number one, so that when you start hitting the ball poorly, you know why you're doing that. And then the second thing you need to be able to do is you need to be able to know what drills to do to get you out of your tendency and back into the pattern that you want to have. And so that's what we've done with Zach. So Zach has these tendencies, and so you know, we've created drills and different things that he can do to maintain those and not fall back into that.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

So Zach has never been known as a long hitter. How does someone like that beat athletes who pounded 40, 50, 60 yards past him?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Well, I told him, I said a long time ago when we started, I said, Zach, you're never gonna be with a strong grip. See, you have you you you eliminate the what we call the swivel of the wrist at the bottom, the rotation of the wrist. So, like in karate, when they break bricks and things, you're gonna always see a twisting of the wrist right at the end of the motion. And if you ask them why do you do that, there's a tremendous more amount of more speed. Um, there's also a little happens to be more timing involved when it comes to a club face. But so Zach's strong grip, he had to unhinge the club without the swivel. Unhinge it and hold it. So I told him, I said, you know, because of your grip, you're not going to be able, you're going to be a little bit limited on the amount of speed you're going to be able to create. So what we're going to do is we're going to become a great driver of the ball. We're going to be a great wedge player because you're not going to be able to hit as many part fives. And we need to be a great putter. And if you do those three things, and those are the strengths of your game, you can compete with anybody. And so that's what we focused on.

Wedge Mastery And Augusta Strategy

SPEAKER_03 22:26

So what were the ingredients that went into him being one of the best wedge players in the history of the game?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Well, the best wedge players in the world hit their wedges low, not high. And uh for many purposes. And um, and so when he when I started working with him, I told him, hey, Zach, we've got to get your launch down, which is going to make your spin go up, because spin is equal to control. And so if we can if we hit it lower uh with your wedges, we can keep it out of the elements, out of the wind and everything. And it's much easier to also judge the distance of a shot. Um, if you can think of a chip and run versus a flop shot, right? A flop shot is very hard to control the distance, a chip and run much easier. So, same kind of concept with wedges. So I started teaching him the technique uh for what he needed to launch those wedges lower. And what I did is I decided I would build a wedge range at my golf course for Zach. So I built this wedge range from 30 yards out to 100. They're concrete blocks, four by four. And uh I put them at different angles so he had to, you know, turn. He couldn't just hit all in one direction. And so the first day I had it, I asked him, I said, Zach, we're gonna hit balls here, and we're gonna see how many balls it takes you to hit all eight blocks. And it took him 168 shots, and he couldn't believe it. So I said, we got to work this and we got to work on this wedge game, and when we're trying to hit low draws. And so he he would come out every day and work on it, and pretty soon he got it down to where he hit all the blocks in 50 shots. And and then the next year he won the masters, and ever since that time, he's been known as one of the best wedge players in the world.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

If I recall, he won the masters with an even pass score. It was uh one over. One over. It was an atypical masters weather, very cold, wet, and windy.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah, so and so we had a strategy to lay up on all the par fives. And at Augusta, you have to lay up on certain sides of the fairway to have the best angle to the pin, where where there's actually what we call a backboard or a slope behind the pin to help stop the ball and everything. So we had we kind of had it all figured out and you know it all worked out. He birdied 11 of the 16 par fives that week. And guys that were longer hitters were having a hard time. They were hitting long clubs in, like three woods and you know, long irons and stuff where they couldn't stop the ball. So it was actually an advantage to lay up short on that during that time.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

And what about Putting?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

I mean, putting he putting Zach is one of the best green readers that I've ever seen. And uh he grew up in Iowa on a golf course called Elm Preston. Elmprest has somewhat smallish greens, but they're very, very undulated. So that wouldn't be unusual to play six feet a break on a 10-foot putt, you know, and have to dye them in and everything. So I think growing up on that golf course really kind of uh taught Zach creativity and visualization and you know, and and and also great speed control. So, so he's been a you know very good putter pretty much his whole career.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

I I kind of recall Zach ever losing his swing. Has has he ever lost it before?

SPEAKER_02 26:03

No. And it's because it's so simple. He's got a very compact swing, it's right on plane, and his he has the best sequencing. I mean, he has ideal sequencing, I'll say that in my book. And so, like I said, what happens with Zach sometimes he because of his compact swing, he gets a little quick in his tempo. Um, sometimes he over because of his strong grip, he overhinges his wrist sometimes. So those are a couple of tendencies that he that we work on. And you'll see him a lot of times with a swing guide on his club. And it's not for hinging, it's for or trying to minimize hinge. So it's kind of we're using a swing guide for the opposite reason that most people use it for, but yeah. But he his swing stays right on track. And we that's another thing about people I think that that would help your listeners is you guys all need to find a direction and stay with it. And today that's really hard to do because there's so much information out there. It's so easy to take a tip here and then try that. And if it doesn't work, then I want to try this. And you know, you you go back and forth between all these different ideas, but if you can stay in one direction, you're always gonna come out on top way better.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

I I always joke with Jesse. I tell him that Instagram keeps me employed because there's no shortage of ideas that students can use to torpedo their golf students.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Right. I would agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

And and it goes back to what you said earlier, Mike, where you where what you feel in slow motion is not what you see in real motion.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Right. And I think, you know, um I don't know who it was, but they had a great comment. They said you learn mechanics first, and then you learn feel from mechanics, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

I I know who said that, Homer Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Okay. And so, and so so if if you think about that statement, then you you need to understand the value of videos. Because when we give a lesson and we want somebody to change their ball flight or make it better, the swing that they currently have obviously isn't working. Otherwise, they wouldn't be here for the lesson, right? So we have to change their motion. And so the key is is you the player taking that lesson needs to see a change in the motion of their golf swing and what drill, and maybe it's a drill that's that they're doing, and or whatever it may be. And that's why we use I use a lot of feedback, right? I'll use a lot of noodles, I'll use all kinds of equipment to produce a better looking swing so that people then can go to the range and copy that. Because at the end of the day, the only way anybody can get better at golf is repetition. You're gonna have to create your new motor program through repetition. So, but if you're if you're just on the range hitting balls and you're using your mind to change your swing, you're it ain't gonna work, I hate to tell you.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Yeah, that keeps us employed.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah, that's uh it does. You're right. It is. But really, I mean, my pet peeve, I mean, in golf, when somebody sees somebody in the driving range with a shaft and a noodle, they go, Oh, that guy's like tin cup, you know, he's got all these training aids and stuff. The bottom line is that the whole range should be filled with that, with people doing that, because that's how you change. But but the but the industry, the golfing population does not understand what it actually takes to make a swing change. And so therefore, they're just out there trying all this stuff.

How The Brain Learns New Moves

SPEAKER_03 29:44

So you've you've coached probab possibly hundreds of thousands of golfers. How does the brain actually learn movement?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Well, the brain is the question is, is if you take somebody that let's say has not ridden a bicycle in 20 years, and you said, Hey, I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll give you $100 if you can get on this bike and ride down the street without falling off, everyone would take the bet, even though they haven't been on a bike in 20 years. Why? Because that motor program is in your brain. And so the misconception that we have is that if we have a motor program in our brain that runs our golf swing, the misconception is that we can change that program. And and the fact is we cannot. That program is in there. So what we have to do is we have to build a new one. Now, the good news is we can recruit parts of the old one. But at the end of the day, it's like two wires running next to each other. And the wire on the left is your normal swing, and it has what's called myelin around it. And and that's your motor program. And the longer you do something, the more myelin or the more coating around that you have. Now you have the new wire on the right, and that's your new swing that we're trying to get. Well, what we have to do is we have to try to get these wires to split apart. And we got so the brain waves would come in and derail onto the new wire, not the old wire. So the only way we can do that is through repetition, and we need ex we need tons of exaggeration. Exaggeration and feedback are the key are the real, real keys to getting the wires to split apart to where you don't go down the old way. And so people don't understand that concept very well, and and so therefore they don't use the training aids, they don't exaggerate. Because remember, if I if I if I exaggerate just a tiny bit, it feels like the Grand Canyon to us. So we go, oh man, that can't be right because it doesn't feel good. But that's where the video comes in. You got to make sure you can see it on the video, and you go, oh, really, that looks perfect. Okay, well, that's what I need to practice. So I mean, that's a very short description. I could go into this for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

But it's I like what you say. It makes a lot of sense if I'm making a 30-yard slice and I learn how to hook it 30 yards. That would be a great form of exaggeration, wouldn't it be?

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Exactly. And then and then when you go play, you're gonna be probably somewhere in the middle, right? So I've had a whatever, 40-year career teaching or whatever it may be, and I've I've only had 13 people overdo anything I taught them. So in all those years, and when I mean by overdoing it, I mean actually coming back a certain time later where they grooved in the exaggeration. Uh, for instance, somebody who's coming over the top and they come back and they're too far from the inside without any training needs or anything. I've only seen that that type of thing happen 13 times in 40 years.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

That's a very good student.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

That's yeah, that's that's how rare it is, though. So we got to try to exaggerate to get to the middle ground. And if you do, you're really gonna make some serious changes.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

So, what you're saying is you need feedback to ensure that you're on the right path. Because if you're repeating a bad move 10,000 times, you're just becoming an expert at being wrong.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Right. You're I call it getting exercise. You're just getting exercise. You're not really, you're not really getting better, you're getting good, you're just getting exercise.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

I I like that. I'm gonna use that one. I think it was uh Bob Rotella that called golf a good walk spoiled. Yeah. So uh there there is this uh discussion that if you pick up golf when you're younger, it's gonna be easier for you to swing the clock more efficiently. Then look at a guy like Larry Nelson, who only picked up the game after finishing his uh army service at I think either 21 or 22, and he he won the US Open.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

I mean, and that that was obviously in a different era, and it was and it and it's but even in that era, it's extremely, extremely rare. So, which really to me, the other thing is is the more talent someone has, the more they can get away with. So, in other words, if they have a ton and ton of talent, they could probably start off at a lot later age and still make it. But somebody like that, to me, is just a mental giant, right? Because they they didn't need to get success to prove themselves. They just always knew they could do it or whatever. And and and they didn't beat themselves. That's another thing about Zach is he doesn't beat himself. When he's playing well, he can keep playing well, and it doesn't matter who's leading. And Zach, Zach was one of the few players that won every year for a 10-year stretch in the tiger era, you know, and he beat Tiger on on several occasions in tournaments, so so you know that's something that's really rare and really difficult to teach.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

You know, you mentioned that uh I start thinking about Greg Norman. I believe he reached scratch within two years. And I've also read it somewhere that's it. The first two or three years of your golfing career would probably be a good barometer of your potential. Do you think that's an accurate statement?

SPEAKER_02 35:44

No, not really, and I and I'll tell you why, because I think um I just think it good the golf game and the golf swing is is is very technical, as we all know, right? So I I kind of use the analogy of playing the violin or the piano, okay. And so so imagine just going to play the piano on your own with no help. Okay, so that's how most golfers start, right? They most golfers really don't get lessons right away. I think there's a stat that says 50% of all the golfers in the world have never had a lesson. So what they do is they just take the game up and they swing at balls and they do things and they groove into bad habits. And I've seen a person that's a ranked beginner, raw beginner, right? They grab the club for the first time and they swing the club the same way over and over again. I mean, not every swing isn't different. So it doesn't take long to build a habit. So unless you get started in the right manner, you know, I I I don't, you know, I'm not so sure I agree with that. I will tell you something else. There's a there's a the National Golf Foundation compiles statistics about golf. And they say if you've played the game for five years or more, the chances of you lowering your handicap more than three points is slim to none. So that's a terrible stat. So, but I I we blow that stat out of the water every day at the academy. I mean, I have student after student after student who've they've lowered their handicaps dramatically. Um, and so you you have to look at, you know, you'd have to look at why that stat exists. And I think it's because people don't take instruction and they don't stick with it and they don't know how to practice properly, so therefore they can't really get that much better.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

So what that means is there is hope for you listeners out there.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

For sure there is. I've never seen anybody yet that couldn't uh accomplish great things in this game if they go about it the right way.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Boy, I can attest to that at 56 years of age. I just have gone through a a pretty prolific swing change and have followed that exact ideology. In fact, I've sent a lot of videos to our friend Justin here. Um and you know, from a student's perspective, even at 56, I have found that the time it takes to create a new neural pathway when I'm speaking for me, when I'm fully committed to knowing where I'm going and how I want to play golf and how I want to hit golf shots. And and I live on the Monterey Peninsula and it's windy, so trajectory control is it's it's not it's mandatory, it's not an election.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Um and and and submitting to the process and going out there and and humbling myself to accept new data and to realize that, hey, I don't know it all. Even at 56, even after playing Division I golf as uh as a as a college player, playing amateur golf, playing U.S. amateurs, that uh I still need to be teachable and there's a better way. Um and just a few of those thought-provoking exercises and and humbling myself and taking some advice and and uh sticking to it. Uh the process has not been quite as long as I thought. It's it's a few weeks of maybe some some painful ball striking on the range because I'm learning a new motor pattern. Uh but it's I'm starting to see the fruit now. Yeah. And it's exciting. It's really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Well, a couple interesting

Practice Vs Playing And Switching Modes

SPEAKER_02 39:37

things too. Like, how many instructors has Tiger Woods had over the years? So Tiger Woods, the best player in the world, has had four or five instructors, and he won golf tournaments with every one of them. So the thing that's important for people to understand, same way with yourself, is that working on your swing and trying to improve it is like the analogy is a toolbox, right? And I have a toolbox, and and maybe my swing is a pair of pliers. Well, I'd like it to be a wrench, and then eventually I'd like it to be a socket wrench, right? So we're we're gonna go down this path and this journey, and we're gonna try to keep upgrading our tool. But in the meantime, we can still play great golf. So the skills for playing golf are different than this than the skills for learning how to swing better. And most people then, what happens is they take lessons and they get these ideas in their mind and they go out on the golf course and they're trying to implement the changes while they're playing golf. And it doesn't work very well because they're on a conscious level and they're thinking about all this stuff in their golf swing. And I tell people, I said, if you go out and shoot 85, you're only going to make about 40, 40 swings of full shots. The rest of your score comes from putting and chipping. So 40 balls or 35 balls or whatever is not enough balls to make your swing better. So there's no use in going out there and trying to implement the swing changes while you're on the course. So you how do you not do that though? That's the key. Okay, well, we got to have a we gotta have, we got to flip the switch from the range to the T, and we got to have a good pre-shot routine, and we gotta, you know, we have to pick our targets and all those things that we know that we're supposed to do, but we got to stick to the playing side in my book. And and if you do that, you can you can keep doing both and have fun and and still play golf at a high level. And and Tiger was able to do that, right? With all these different coaches and different swing changes he was making. He still never lost his ability to play the game.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

So, Mike, share with our listeners. High-level PGA 12 Pro comes in, let's you assess his game, his ball flight, you say, Hey, ball flight starting lines inconsistent. This is what we gotta do to fix it. How long is it gonna take from conscious execution to unconscious execution under pressure?

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Well, I think first off, if if a high level, you gotta remember, high-level players are already good. So they're good with what they have, but they have complaints. So they might complain, hey, I miss it left or I miss it right or whatever their complaint is. So, so the lesson for somebody like that's gonna be different than it would be for a 15 handicap or my book. But uh, so we're gonna look at why, what is he doing in his golf swing that's producing that miss? And so we're gonna discuss that, we're gonna look at it, and then we're gonna have a plan for how to work on it. But at the end of the day, that player still has to make a living playing golf. So he's, you know, he doesn't have the luxury of having two or three months off to work on his golf swing. So the question I have, and and I've taught a lot of tour players, and and and this isn't really bashing the tour players, but the tour players can be some of the toughest people to teach because there's so much, they have so much access to other teachers that if it doesn't work right away, if they don't feel like they're getting the results like right away, and I'm talking about in the next few weeks, maybe to a month, they're on to the next. Oh, that's not right. That's not that's not gonna work for me. And so, you know, I think there's all kinds of examples of that where like Max Holm, I believe, you know, worked with Mark Blackburn, had great success. He left him, kind of game went down. You know, now I I think he might be back with Mark again, starting to play good again. But my point is, is that you know, um as a tour player, you the the most important thing, and it's kind of what Jesse said, you gotta buy in. You have to buy in. And and I'll give you one other. Really quick analogy, and that is if if you take a jigsaw puzzle and you lay all the pieces out on the table, the first thing people do is what? What do they look at?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

They look at bonus.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Yeah, but how do you know where the corners go?

SPEAKER_03 44:16

You look at the mean picture.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Right. So you have to have a clear vision of the finished product. And then you got to go, okay, now I know where I'm going to get to. So now you start putting the pieces in, right? And so I think tour players are all the ones that do well are the ones that stick with people and stay in the process and stay in and keep working and keep working. The ones that jump around and have like, I mean, Victor Hovlin's a good example. He's jumped around to a bunch of different instructors, you know, and he's a great player. And he, and like I said, he's got so much talent. He makes it work sometimes. And he's but I think he would have been better off had he stuck with one guy, is what I'm trying to say. And that's what I my advice would be to the listeners that are out here listening to this.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

So guys that stuck with one coach, I can think of three great players. Rory McElroy stuck with his boyhood coach. Sure, he's got uh Butch Haman giving uh his opinion, Scotty Shaffler with Randy Smith, Jim Fuhrer with his dad, Mike Fury, and John Daly, maybe no coach at all, hasn't messed around with his thing. He's got two majors and a career that most uh journeyman PGA tour pros would love to have.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah, I mean he's a personality, right? Like Bubba Watson or somebody, right? So, you know, so I don't think John Daly's personality is gonna want to allow him to, you know, be that focused, right? He's a happy look go lucky guy and that type of thing. But I remember the old story about Nick Faldo coming to see David Ledbetter. And Ledbetter tells him, Nick, I said, if you'll stick with me for two years, you'll be the number one player in the world. Well, two and a half, so he stuck with him for two and a half years and he became the number one player in the world. So here's Nick Faldo coming from Europe, already a great player, already won in Europe, gets with Ledbetter. Leadbetter tells him it's going to be two years. Faldo buys in, stays with him, and then look what Faldo's career turned out to be, right? And so, you know, and not to say this, but uh credit, I'm giving credit again back to Zach Johnson, but I've been with him for 26 years. And one of the reasons why he's so consistent is just because he doesn't change much. And I not not just me, but he doesn't change equipment, he doesn't change mental coach, you know. He he sticks with the same team, and that's I think one of the secrets to his success as well.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

And he sticks to the same button, Seymour.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot a lot to be learned from that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

But a lot of that is also down to the element of luck.

Choosing A Coach And Sticking With One

SPEAKER_03 47:11

What do I mean? The the element of picking the right coach. What's what's your advice? What's your advice to our listeners looking for either an online coach or a PGA professional coach in the area? What are the the things that should be asking this coach? What are the telltale signs that they should be looking out for?

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Right. I I think that's a great question. And um, I think you want to have a coach that's accessible, number one. Number two, I think you want to, you know, if you're a visual guy or you like video, you need to ask them, hey, how do you run your lessons? But you know, most amateurs don't interview the coach before they go take a lesson, which I think they should. And that, you know, do you use technology? Do you use a trackman every time or sometimes, or do you use a video every, you know, how do you do things? And and you know, because you're gonna have um an a better idea as a as the student coming in, you're gonna you're gonna have a way that you like to learn, you like things to happen. And so if you ask those questions and you know, how long does a lesson last? I mean, all those little variables um I think really can help you decide whether to take a chance on this guy or not, right? And then, you know, I think you're gonna know pretty quickly after one or two lessons with that person whether, you know, personality-wise and format-wise that you think it's gonna be a good match.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

What's your advice to our listeners who somehow correlate golf skill to golf knowledge? I've had many students in the past where they wanted to learn beyond what they needed to know for their own golf game.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Yeah, I well, I think it gets back to um, you know, uh I use lots of analogies, but I would rather go to a restaurant that only had 10 things on the menu than go to a restaurant that had 50 things on the menu. So I try to tell people, say, hey, we can go, we can talk about this stuff, but let's get good at let's get good at this first, right? Let's get really good at, you know, let's get your driving accuracy better and let's get it, let's get your putting better and those types of things. You don't, you don't need more things in golf, but everybody's always looking for the next thing. Like I'll have students that'll come to me, they haven't been to me in a year, maybe because they're from out of the country or whatever, and they'll say, What are you doing differently this year? And I said, Well, are you doing everything I wanted you to do last time really good? And we need more, or you know, and usually we find out they're still doing the same thing they did on the last lesson because they didn't, you know, implement the practice that well. So I, you know, I just think you want to make sure that, or people need to make sure that they get they get really good at something and not average at a bunch of things.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

And that's the seduction of the modern era. This is what I call the McDonaldization of the golf thing. It's like, oh, let's put Mike's book in the microwave, ding, two minutes, we'll have a perfect thing. I don't think it works that way.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

It never will, as long as the brain works the way it does and everything. But it but because of technology, right? And we have so much more data than we ever had, and we have, and everything's laser-like, right? I mean, you know, I I've never seen uh I've never seen anybody make two consecutive swings on a track man and have the same exact numbers. You know, they're so they're so laser-like in everything. So um it's easy to get caught up in the technology, it's easy to get caught up in, you know, the newest, latest, greatest thing, um, and ignore really some of the basic fundamentals that you really need to be good at. Because at the end of the day, what does everybody want? I think everybody wants to get better. They want to be more consistent. That's the word I hear all the time. So, how can you be consistent when you're inconsistent with the information that you're getting? You know, so what you need to do in golf, there's that's a game of variables, obviously. So we need to make as many things constant as we can. And so if you do that and you take that approach, you know, you're you're going to you know reach your goals and you're gonna play better golf, you're gonna have more fun, all those great things.

Technology, Numbers, And Exaggeration

SPEAKER_03 51:42

What would you say is the most overrated golf technology?

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Well, if I say this, people will go crazy probably, but I think by and I'll answer it this way. Let's say, for instance, somebody comes in and they get on the um pressure plates or they get onto the track man and the spits out the numbers, right? And the negative the numbers aren't very good. Okay. So, but if I see on a video camera, like I can tell what the player's sequencing is, I can tell if they're turning, they're pivoting around their spine properly. And most of the time, or all the time, that the numbers are bad, they're not doing these things. So if I if I just look at a video camera and I see somebody in a reverse pivot and then they're shifting out, they're coming out, and their numbers are negative on their path and all this, I don't need machines to tell me that. So, but it's okay to take the initial analysis, but then if I work them on a lesson and I get them turning better and I get the club slotting more from the inside on plane, all of a sudden their weight starts to move properly, and all of a sudden their ball flight changes everything. Then we go back onto the machine and all the numbers are better, see. So at the end of the day, the technology, all it is is an analysis tool. So my question to all you teachers out there and people out there that are using the technology is if you didn't have it, could you still teach that person? And could you still make that person better? And I'll bet you you would answer yes. And so you so just I just say that in in terms of I'm an old school guy, right? And I grew up with no cameras, and then you know, now we're where we are. So, but I mean, I I see teachers that don't even listen to the or don't even watch the ball flight, and they're not even listening to the sound of the sound of the ball coming off the face. And, you know, they're a lot of times they're not look at the club face and where the ball is being hit on the face and things like that. So I think there's a blend, is what I'm trying to say. And I think you want to use technology. The better somebody is at golf, probably the more important it is, only because you can't see everything on video and all that. But for the most people out there, I would be using it very sparingly.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

Budding teachers should listen to the last two minutes by my own repeat at least 10 times. I think uh David Ledbetta also said this at open forum. They said man tells you what, but it doesn't tell you how. A guy could be 10 two guys could be 10 degrees inside out and do it very differently. It takes experience.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Exactly right. And uh but yeah, the other thing uh not to interrupt, but the other thing I want to get out, the point I want to get out is what happens too is on the technology, everybody knows what the range should be. Okay, so let's say the range on a path on a track man should be two to four, maybe on an iron shot or whatever from the inside. Well, that's perfect. To me, that's okay, that's perfect. But what if the guy's five from the outside coming in uh left, negative, and then you do a drill with him, and then he goes 10 right. Well, he's gonna go, oh man, that's way too much from the inside. I go, no way, because you've been five left. You got to go, you gotta go ten. I don't even care if you're 12 right for a while. We'll bring you back to perfect. But see, he knows what the numbers should be, so he's just always trying to get to perfect and he's not allowing himself to exaggerate. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Yes, it does. It's it's like reversion to the mean. If you're on a balancing beam and you're on the left, the left side of the beam, you need to get yourself to the right end before you can get balanced out. It's like how we balance ourselves when we cycle a bicycle. Almost.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

I mean, you need some overcorrection.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Yes, and and so you so you you need to understand that process so you don't get too enamored by these numbers and exactly what perfect is. Because we're all chasing perfect, and it's elusive to some degree, but we can get closer and closer to it if we take the proper steps and do it in the right order. There is a difference, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

There's a saying, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Sometimes good enough is good enough.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Absolutely. Yep. Yeah.

The Speed Myth And AI Limits

SPEAKER_03 56:38

Is that you you know, if if you were the uh governor of golfing thoughts, past, present, and future, what would be the one golfing thought you would banish from golf forever?

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Boy. Boy, I I think I think you know this the if you if if you interview people on what where speed comes from, what would you say the number one answer would be?

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Let's rotate the hell out of your hips and your pivot.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Exactly. Okay, so I think that's the worst information ever. And the reason I say that is that whole downswing takes one quarter of one second. One quarter of one second to get your club head from the top of the swing to the bottom. And so if you look at anything in life that we do that creates speed, ping pong, snapping a towel, cracking a whip, using a fishing rod, um drumming, you're using your hands and arms. And most people think you got to get your hands out of the golf swing. Oh man, I'm too handsy. I gotta, I gotta get the hands out of there. And they think that you should generate speed by this rotation of the trunk. So a professional's golf swing, the rotation speed of a trunk is between seven and twelve miles an hour. So put a club in your stomach and draw and turn 12 miles an hour and see how much clubhead speed you get. So I think that information has caused more people, and that concept has caused more people to have bad downswings. Um, and so by getting those arms to fire and accelerate, and I'm not saying all you do is swing with your arms and you use your wrists and all that. I'm saying it's a blending of both. But for most people, most people are actually experts at turning from the start of the downswing, and they're not very good at using their arms. So training to use your arms and to accelerate it and to control the club face with by the way your hands work is is a better concept than trying to spin your body.

SPEAKER_03 59:00

But it keeps the lesson books full.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

You are you are so true with that. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

In this day of artificial intelligence, if AI had every good golf swing recorded through history, would it build a better golfer than an elite coach like yourself?

SPEAKER_02 59:26

I don't think so. And the reason I say that is because it's already been tried. So at Grand Cypress Resort, when I was coming up and I was practicing out there, Fred Griffin was there, and they had a model. They took the top, the top 50 players, right? And they put a and they measured every movement of every joint, and they built a model based on the average tour player. And it it did not work out very well. It did not work out very well. So AI and and all these different parameters that are based on all these tour players, the averages, I don't believe is going to really help much at all. And plus, AI, is it gonna tell you how to do it? Is it gonna analyze your swing and tell you, hey, you got to do this, and then the next person to achieve that same spot, he's got to do that. He's got to do something completely different. So I just, you know, time will tell though, won't it? Because it's coming.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

It's definitely you know uh what one of the reasons why in 2005 I enjoyed taking lessons with Chuck Evans was he he he could talk. He made me feel at ease about myself. He'll talk about cars, we'll talk about stuff. Just AI is not gonna do that. AI is not gonna tell, hey son, how are you today? It's not gonna say that. I think that's there's the element of communication that's very rarely discussed when we talk about golf coaching skills.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

No question about it. And at the end of the day, right, it's a relationship with your student. And that relationship is not just about golf, as you're mentioning, it's about everything. And and um, and it's a great, it's a great thing.

Where To Find Mike And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

It's a great thing for the student, it's a great thing for the coach.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:15

Jesse, any last questions for our guests?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:19

No, this has been a fantastic conversation. Uh, Mike, how can our listeners find you, get a hold of you, uh get benderized? Yes, get better. Maybe uh sign up for one of your golf schools.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

Well, swell, you we are um just my website, mikebender.com, has all my information on it. Um, social media-wise, we do post like everybody else, and that's Bender Golf at Bender Golf. And then I I'm excited about I just launched uh uh a new platform that goes into more detail because Instagram, right, you get snippets of something, you get an idea, but in my book, it it's way beyond that. You need to really understand the ins and outs. And so I've started Bender Golf Online and and I'm I'm building that platform, and I feel like it's my life's work, and I'm going to continue to make that really, really good. So it's a it's a resource for people down the road. You know, if they want to stay in one direction and they want to build a great golf game, go great golf swing.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

So yeah. Thank you very much for your time, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:31

Yeah, guys, I really appreciate you having me on and the invite. It's always fun to talk about golf with and uh what's going on in the industry. It's great. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:39

Yeah, and it's really it's really uh a pleasure of mine to finally be able to see you in person. After all these years of uh of reading about you. It's truly a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Uh thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

Yep, and thank you, Mike, for your contribution to this game.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

You guys have a great day out there.